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Ultra2 vs Pro GPI vs XCS2


Alex Kornreich

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Also, what are the benefits of the WK back mounted vest? I've read it helps with fatigue, especially with regards to the lower back. Are there any limitations on it? I've also heard they're wider, so it may be more difficult to squeeze through tight spaces (which I've done often), as well as it's difficult to run in. It's close enough in price to the PRO vest and Steadicam vest that I'm considering it as well. I've never really had problems with the front mounted vest though, so I'm hesitant to switch.

 

 

I feel I could add some insight here since I just got done demoing a WK vest. I will add though, that I am NOT a veteran op or had the time to fully appreciate the WK.

 

The first thing I noticed was how well constructed it was. Leather, carbon fiber, latches, all perfection. It was pretty heavy to me weight wise. Took a few times to get it on right. Thought about how I would have to adjust it every time I put it on in the field.

 

After connecting the arm (and realizing I had to flip over the socket block?) I immediately noticed the difference in arm position. Out and low. Different but not a bad thing. Figured this was what I've seen ops say about the harness making them wider for certain situations.

 

I cruised around a bit and even stood in one spot for a good 20min (testing out the leg tingle thing, which I didn't experience) I did however, notice the waist piece was getting pretty uncomfortable with jeans and a belt, as most of the weight is distributed around the waist. My waist is pretty narrow and the bones just didn't like what I was doing to them.

 

I know some of the ops here swear by the WK and others switch back and forth (see many threads in the vest section).

 

I think the vest is a super personal thing since everyone's body is very different. Will I buy a WK? I don't think it's for me.

 

The best advice you can get, is on this forum from these men and women that do this for a living. I don't let the companies decide which gear I buy.

Edited by Kevin Andrews
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Hi there,

 

If I have understood well, vest like WK need to be specifically built for each person, so the proper fit could be achieved. That's why they insist on taking the various measurements for each order for that vest..

 

Josip from Split

 

 

And you would be correct, unless you had someone from WK fitting the demo suit for you there is a good chance that it's not going to fit correctly.

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If it would be compatible with mine bone structure (don't know, never tried it), would gladly use it to avoid those situations like extra long shots, where a bit of pain (or a bit more) in the back, while using fm vest, could cause compromised quality of the last part of the shot.

Only for couriosity, was it standard or deluxe version?

 

best regards

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If it would be compatible with mine bone structure (don't know, never tried it), would gladly use it to avoid those situations like extra long shots, where a bit of pain (or a bit more) in the back, while using fm vest, could cause compromised quality of the last part of the shot.

Only for couriosity, was it standard or deluxe version?

 

best regards

 

It was a universal harness.

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Great thread everyone.

 

Well Alex,

Did you make your time frame to purchase before the new year? What did you decide on?

 

I have a PRO2 and XCS franken sled, WK vest, a modifed 3A front mounted vest for tight spaces, and G-70. I'm happy with all, but if I was starting over is would be very tough to choose.

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Didn't make the decision by New Years, but as of today Im finalized on what I'll be doing.

 

I checked out a rig from an accomplished operator who's DPing/Cam oping more these days, and is trying to move away from steadicam. I looked at it closely today, and it looks great.

 

It's an all PRO package (arm with 8 canisters, vest, sled(not HD)), Preston hu-2, mdr2 w/ 3 motors, 2 kenyon gyros, XCS greenscreen monitor w/ backup transvideo 3a, superpost, modulus 3000, 14 dionic/hytron batteries, cables, etc etc.

 

I was hesitant of going used at first, but I was basically able to stay at my budget (albeit the top), and get a preston, gyros, greenscreen monitor, and backups of everything included as well.

 

I still havent tried out the XCS sled yet, but it's really starting to look too expensive, and I really like the simplicity of the PRO.

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It sounds like a really good option, but you may not need to spend an extra 5-8 thousand dollars on gyros, unless you have to buy them with the entire package, or you know that you will be using them . It might be safer to have a little extra cash just in case. I am sure there will be some widgets and gadgets that you will want to buy after operating a few gigs to make your life easier, and having some extra cash might just be what you need. Not that Gyros aren't a great tool that may be needed, but I know of many ops that very seldom use them or nearly never. I hope some more ops can chime in and give you some more of their personal opinions on having gyros as part of the package. If you have to buy them a s part of a complete package and you find out over time that you don't need them, you should be able to sell them on this, or the cinematographers forum.

 

You should be very happy with the rig you are considering, it sounds like a great set up.

 

Does the the package you are considering buying have all the power and run/stop cables (plus backups)? digital level? Hard/vehicle mount? video tuner receiver? Do you have a practice weight cage, camera cart, mini video camera or on board recorder?

 

If you are starting out on student or super low budget productions, a back up down converter like the AJA may be nice to have in your bag of tricks. They can be picked up used $500-$700.

 

Don't forget to get your insurance right away $1000-$2000 a year.

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And you would be correct, unless you had someone from WK fitting the demo suit for you there is a good chance that it's not going to fit correctly.

 

I agree with Eric; at the various week-long workshops I've attended and/or dropped in to visit, probably the #1 buzz-kill and time waste are students who have bought used rigs and/or WK vests that do not fit them.... HOURS of wasted time slowing the rest of the class while they try to make a ill-fitted vest work for them. This isn't WKs fault, it's a vest made, fit and broken in for another body.

 

If I were going to switch to a WK the ONLY way I'd do it is to travel up there and get measured in-person by WK / staff. Maybe WK can refit a used vest to a new body?

 

I can only speak for the Tiffen Ultra vest but there's also a break-in period where the padding, straps and supports form to the shape of your body, like a pair of shoes / boots. When I sold my Clipper 2 to move up, I kept my upgraded Ultra vest because it was broken in to fit me and I didn't want to go through another six months of break in on a new vest.

 

Robert

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Hey, guys, it’s simple. Look at production photos in AC Magazine for the last ten years. Notice what the A-list guys are flying. How many A-list guys are flying what?

 

What I’ve noticed is this: It’s always a TB-6, usually on a PRO. But do the research yourselves to verify.

 

For some especially delicious Tiffen irony, check out SOC’s 2008 Special Awards Issue. Tiffen’s Ultra 2 wins the Technical Achievement Award. But every operator nominated for Operator of the Year is shown with his PRO/TB-6. Tillman Butner is featured in the Historical Shot article flying his Baer-Bel sled. Larry is shown flying his modified-beyond-recognition Ultra sled… with a TB-6.

 

After years of research, I still screwed up. I should have bought everything XCS. What was I thinking? Here’s what it is. First thing you buy is a used TB-6 with the PDL. That way you can see what you’re shooting (Jesus!), frame and hold level no matter what. Then you buy XCS or PRO in that order. Then you can take any gig that comes your way, and you don’t have to be wrestling with your gear on set or even thinking much about it, and you can just concentrate on the usual insanity involved with getting a steadicam shot.

 

Hey, BTW, for you newbies, ever notice how it’s always the guys with $100G in their rigs who spout this falsehood: It’s not the rig, it’s the operator. Steadicam is 90% operator. Maybe for them it is.

 

Maybe these guys have forgotten what it was like to suffer for years with shitty little rigs that nod-off level when panned five degrees. Or what it’s like to try and find an image on a $2 LCD at ugly hour in LA. It would be great if this thread could put paid to this line of bullshit.

 

Full disclosure: My sled is an XCS/PRO hybrid.

post-6668-1263769893_thumb.jpg

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It sounds like a really good option, but you may not need to spend an extra 5-8 thousand dollars on gyros, unless you have to buy them with the entire package, or you know that you will be using them . It might be safer to have a little extra cash just in case. I am sure there will be some widgets and gadgets that you will want to buy after operating a few gigs to make your life easier, and having some extra cash might just be what you need. Not that Gyros aren't a great tool that may be needed, but I know of many ops that very seldom use them or nearly never. I hope some more ops can chime in and give you some more of their personal opinions on having gyros as part of the package. If you have to buy them a s part of a complete package and you find out over time that you don't need them, you should be able to sell them on this, or the cinematographers forum.

 

You should be very happy with the rig you are considering, it sounds like a great set up.

 

Does the the package you are considering buying have all the power and run/stop cables (plus backups)? digital level? Hard/vehicle mount? video tuner receiver? Do you have a practice weight cage, camera cart, mini video camera or on board recorder?

 

If you are starting out on student or super low budget productions, a back up down converter like the AJA may be nice to have in your bag of tricks. They can be picked up used $500-$700.

 

Don't forget to get your insurance right away $1000-$2000 a year.

 

This Op I'm getting from has done a large number of big shows, and this is all of the gear he owns, so it seems to be pretty all-inclusive (ie it's got all the camera and run stop cables with backups). I've definitely thought about whether I need the gyros, and whether it'll add a whole new level of complication to my life, but I feel i've already encountered enough situations where wind has really affected my operating, so I'd definitely like to try them. And as you said, I can always sell them.

 

There's no on board recorder I believe, but I should check. And regarding the AJA, I've already got one, though I may pick up a Redbyte.

 

And insurance... yea it sucks, but I already own a bunch of camera gear, so it's not new to me.

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Hey, BTW, for you newbies, ever notice how it’s always the guys with $100G in their rigs who spout this falsehood: It’s not the rig, it’s the operator. Steadicam is 90% operator. Maybe for them it is.

 

So are you saying that the falsehood spouted is the 10% difference or the whole thinking of technician vs his tools? There are a lot of great shots done on model 1's, 2's, and 3's. Hell, Larry flew a 3A until 10 yrs ago (Goodfellas was done with his 3A and a BL-3 if memory serves). Look at Garrett's work on The Shining shot with prehistoric gear and a tiny 2" monitor (but at least viewable in direct sunlight, as you said) -- the monitor shootout showed many why some still like to carry an extra 3 lbs of power sucking greenscreen. There is also a lot of bad work done by some pretty nice gear.

 

Nice gear might get your foot in the door but being a good operator will get you called back. Pretty funny about the SOC awards.

 

rb

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Hey, guys, it’s simple. Look at production photos in AC Magazine for the last ten years. Notice what the A-list guys are flying. How many A-list guys are flying what?

 

What I’ve noticed is this: It’s always a TB-6, usually on a PRO. But do the research yourselves to verify.

 

For some especially delicious Tiffen irony, check out SOC’s 2008 Special Awards Issue. Tiffen’s Ultra 2 wins the Technical Achievement Award. But every operator nominated for Operator of the Year is shown with his PRO/TB-6. Tillman Butner is featured in the Historical Shot article flying his Baer-Bel sled. Larry is shown flying his modified-beyond-recognition Ultra sled… with a TB-6.

 

After years of research, I still screwed up. I should have bought everything XCS. What was I thinking? Here’s what it is. First thing you buy is a used TB-6 with the PDL. That way you can see what you’re shooting (Jesus!), frame and hold level no matter what. Then you buy XCS or PRO in that order. Then you can take any gig that comes your way, and you don’t have to be wrestling with your gear on set or even thinking much about it, and you can just concentrate on the usual insanity involved with getting a steadicam shot.

 

Hey, BTW, for you newbies, ever notice how it’s always the guys with $100G in their rigs who spout this falsehood: It’s not the rig, it’s the operator. Steadicam is 90% operator. Maybe for them it is.

 

Maybe these guys have forgotten what it was like to suffer for years with shitty little rigs that nod-off level when panned five degrees. Or what it’s like to try and find an image on a $2 LCD at ugly hour in LA. It would be great if this thread could put paid to this line of bullshit.

 

Full disclosure: My sled is an XCS/PRO hybrid.

 

Ive looked through this thread to try and find what you're responding to, but didn't have any luck. What drove you to bring this up?

 

To address what you're saying, I respectfully disagree. Operating is a whole lot more than just the equipment itself. Being able to frame properly, improvise when actors miss their marks or something doesn't go as planned, and having the stamina and fitness to do as many takes as the DP or director needs is 75% of the battle. Then you factor in the skill and technique of actually accomplishing those goals consistently, and you're at at least 90%, and none of those things involve the quality of the rig. And since the physics are the same regardless of what rig you're using, you can still adjust pan and tilt inertia as much or as little as you need (obviously some rigs are easier than others, but it can still be done).

 

So now where does the equipment come in? For arms, it's the ability to dampen footsteps throughout the boom range. However a great operator is still able to make nearly perfectly smooth shots even with less than stellar arms. Ron had some great examples, but of course none of the arms, or sleds for that matter, from the 80s/90s are as good they are today, yet they have some of the best and smoothest steadicam shots of all time (check out steadishots.org).

 

Finally, you're correlation between SOC Op of the year nominations and what rig they're flying is at best misleading, to the point of being completely incorrect. In statistics they have the saying "correlation does not imply causation" for a reason. In this particular case you're inferring that the XCS/Pro combo causes, or is primarily responsible for, their success as operators. Isn't it possible that XCS and Pro just know what talented ops want, and present it in a better package? Maybe they have better marketing, or have endorsement deals with the best ops to pose with their rigs (kidding on that one...)? Would Michael Schumacher win any less if he drove for the BMW team, or the Honda team, or how about Tiger Woods using Callaway instead of Nike? Also, since talented ops will generally start with shitty gear, how did they continue get hired so much that they were able to spend $100k or more on their rigs?

 

For me, I'd take a good op with shitty equipment 9/10 times more than Id take a mediocre op with a PRO. Actually make that 10/10.

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