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Motorized Stage


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Eric, I think you misread my post. I am in agreeance that the motorized stage is a "convenience" device. I was talking about the manual tilt stage.

 

I shoot two 30min Live shows every day, 5 days a week, and for the majority of the stuff, I'm tilting the camera down at a pretty severe angle (it's golf after all). Having the widest HDTV lens that Canon makes is part of the reason that I need to tilt so severely to properly frame the shot. I've done this for 2 months straight with no tilt stage, and then for 7 days shot with a Clipper312 and an Ultra2 with the tilt stage. THAT is what I am referencing as a necessity...because now I can get the rig back (close to) dynamic balance most of the time and only make minor tilt adjustments by hand. Think Mad Money live, but for 1hr, essentially shooting the ground most of the time, and 90% steadi.

 

If you're telling me that I should work harder when I don't have to, I won't buy that argument for $1

 

Along the lines of not relying on gizmos to cover up operating issues, I've also come to realize that many of us are "guilty" of relying on a certain amount of weight to make our shots look good. I've heard more than a few ops talk about their sweet spot of payload (myself included, back in the day) and how they don't like operating with lighter cameras, to the point where they will add lead to bring it back to that 32 lb-ish ideal. As I've been working with these little Canons a lot and using my little rig, naturally it requires a far lighter touch and I've come to realize how much I was relying on inertia to carry me through. It's probably made me a better operator in some ways to have to get the same results with a rig that weighs less than half as much.

 

You're preaching to the choir Charles. I've been working every last bit out of my Flyer LE these past few months. I'm ready to breath a sigh of relief when the Ultra2 finally comes in. I gotta say, it's really kept me on my toes as far as maintaining proper operating techniques. And to think that for the first 3 weeks, I didn't even have the Mohawk jumper. I shutter to think what my footage must have looked like back then. Now, I can be almost robotic. There is something to be said for the toll that extra bit of concentration takes on you when you do it upwards of 14 times a week..

 

(I somehow duplicated my post while editing it, feel free to delete the first one)

Edited by Mike Germond
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A look at the average tilt I'm working with...now if I could null that out with a tilt stage and get the post back to vertical, I can work less on pans and make the usual minor adjustments by hand as needed.

 

 

Edited by Mike Germond
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A look at the average tilt I'm working with...now if I could null that out with a tilt stage and get the post back to vertical, I can work less on pans and make the usual minor adjustments by hand as needed.

 

 

That's the "Extreme" tilt you're working with????

 

 

I stand by my statement

 

Any issues with the horizon are operator induced and indicative of technique being used. For that little tilt you don't need a tilt stage.

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A look at the average tilt I'm working with...now if I could null that out with a tilt stage and get the post back to vertical, I can work less on pans and make the usual minor adjustments by hand as needed.

 

 

That's the "Extreme" tilt you're working with????

 

 

I stand by my statement

 

Any issues with the horizon are operator induced and indicative of technique being used. For that little tilt you don't need a tilt stage.

 

I'd say that with any tilt, it's better to use the tilt stage than not; it's like focus, where it's tack sharp and starts to fall off the further away you are.

 

Having the post perfectly vertical is best, and the closer you are the better.

 

If you don't have a tilt stage, sure, you get by and can do marvelous work - (we got by with handheld before Steadicam, by golly, and I use my fingernail as a screwdriver sometimes) but it's not the best way to travel, and certainly a pain not to have a tilt stage with extreme tilts and faster pans.

 

I don't happen to use some tools others swear by on this forum (the ergo handle comes to mind, as do gyros) but I also don't feel free to comment on it, and especially not to suggest that those who use it are somehow less than skillful.

 

Jerry

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A look at the average tilt I'm working with...now if I could null that out with a tilt stage and get the post back to vertical, I can work less on pans and make the usual minor adjustments by hand as needed.

 

 

That's the "Extreme" tilt you're working with????

 

 

I stand by my statement

 

Any issues with the horizon are operator induced and indicative of technique being used. For that little tilt you don't need a tilt stage.

 

Eric, I never said I had issues with horizon, I'm just sick of working extra to prevent it from happening. Jerry has so eloquently put my thoughts into words, so I'll say no more..

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Eric, I never said I had issues with horizon...

 

Well... you sort of did say that:

 

 

....For the type of stuff I'm doing, it solves so much of the horizon roll on slow, delicate arcs...

 

Mike, I don't think anyone is picking on your operating or saying that tilting stages are not good; I have one myself just not the motorized version.

 

I use my tilt stage mostly for flying at a specific lens height while holding headroom on a taller or shorter subject. It is very helpful as well when I'm stuck on the floor level shooting up to a much higher stage. Of course if you tilt the top stage for the live stage then surely the director will ask for audience reaction; in that rare case maybe a preset would be helpful but instead I balance my rig a bit more neutral.

 

A good bit of my work is live or live to tape. In the live world other than myself and Kris I simply don't see the other live ops using a tilting top stage at all; Rob, Tore, Andrew, Dave, Manny, John...

 

My only point for you is not to get overly focused on an optional mechanized rig feature in evaluating the rig / arm / vest package. Test the sled for rigidity / vibration with some extended post running and sudden stops while rolling tape to review. Test the arm for fluidity, friction and "stiction". A simple test like standing there with the rig floating and going up and down on your tip-toes; grab the connecting elbow and wiggle it up and down. Does the sled follow or sit perfectly still? Tape a horizontal line across the room and do the slowest, creeping dolly move you can with the X hairs or framelines on the tape and see if your footsteps telegraph into the shot. You'll eventually be asked to do these kinds of shots if not already and a lot more frequently than you'll be asked for tilted whip-pans.

 

BTW, that's quite the load and live rig set up you've managed on your Flyer in that photo! Kudos!

 

Robert

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BTW, that's quite the load and live rig set up you've managed on your Flyer in that photo! Kudos!

 

Robert

 

Haha thanks. Peter Abraham was proud when I sent him some photos. Can you believe I operated that for 3 weeks without a Mohawk Jumper! (actually the fiber operated it, I was just along for the ride)

 

My only point for you is not to get overly focused on an optional mechanized rig feature in evaluating the rig / arm / vest package. Test the sled for rigidity / vibration with some extended post running and sudden stops while rolling tape to review. Test the arm for fluidity, friction and "stiction". A simple test like standing there with the rig floating and going up and down on your tip-toes; grab the connecting elbow and wiggle it up and down. Does the sled follow or sit perfectly still? Tape a horizontal line across the room and do the slowest, creeping dolly move you can with the X hairs or framelines on the tape and see if your footsteps telegraph into the shot. You'll eventually be asked to do these kinds of shots if not already and a lot more frequently than you'll be asked for tilted whip-pans.

 

I have done all this testing already. Peter was kind enough to send a Clipper and an Ultra2 over for a week. I put both through the paces on my daily work load. I like the G-series arms for the ride adjustment and not always returning to "center." The tip-toe shot you described is part of my Thurs-Sun for 30mins on our Live pregame shows (plural because some days have 2 pregames). I've been able to keep footsteps from translating with the FlyerLE, but it's a heck of a lot more work! Both the Clipper and the Ultra2 eased that pain quite a bit. I have my framelines set in the camera, and I keep my crosshairs locked onto a certain point in the set for that show, and since I'm the 2/3/4shot, I get a LOT of action.

 

Moral of the story, I used the tilt-stage a TON and the motorized stage NONE. That was my point from the start..

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Eric, I never said I had issues with horizon, I'm just sick of working extra to prevent it from happening.

 

Let me refresh your memory Mike,

For the type of stuff I'm doing, it solves so much of the horizon roll on slow, delicate arcs.
that's from post #11 in this thread.

 

Then you go on about your "Extreme tilt" due to the use of "Canon's widest zoom". When I saw your photo of the "Extreme tilt" I damn near did a spit take. That's not an extreme amount of tilt. that's normal and it certainly doesn't warrant using a tilt stage. If it did I doubt we would see the level of work that has been produced since 1976.

 

It's about operating Mike, not relying on technology to make you "Robotic"

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LOL, good comment.

I never use a tiltstage, some how i dont like the idea of having a higher topstage that gets further away from the gimbal. But thats me i guess. I like to have the gimbal as close as possible to the topstage.

Now for low mode i would say that this is very very handy. I always hate te fact to do extremly lowmode and to have to look up. ( think rap crap video's) But have to try that. Cant we have a tiltstage motorized? haha. Then i would love it for sure. In highmode to maintain headroom, i use the incredible boomrange of the g70.

But its all personal i guess.

My 2 cents

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"If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said 'faster horses'"

 

Imagine the look on his face when a time traveler is telling him that he needed to design a car with GPS, 5.1 Dolby, airbags, anti-lock brakes, remote lock / start, heat / AC, heated seats, Bluetooth, On-Star and ultimately bio-diesel or hydrogen? Plus we need it big enough to carry our Steadicam kit but small enough to park in LA.

 

Good quote Chris!

 

Robert

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Imagine the look on his face when a time traveler is telling him that he needed to design a car with GPS, 5.1 Dolby, airbags, anti-lock brakes, remote lock / start, heat / AC, heated seats, Bluetooth, On-Star and ultimately bio-diesel or hydrogen? Plus we need it big enough to carry our Steadicam kit but small enough to park in LA.

It would be like asking Eric to drive a Model T ;)

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Eric-

 

As you claim to understand my thinking, I'd like to be a bit more clear.

 

I really don't care what rig anyone owns. It's always the quality of work that matters (and everyone has their won opinions about what's good or bad). You have perfectly valid reasons to fly what you fly, as do others, and the fact that "sled A" has some features or doesn't have others that some other folks think are important, well, that's like many things in life: we all have our cherished beliefs. There are many sleds that work well (yours among them), and a good number that fail to do the basic tasks well.

 

What I object to, and was trying to hint at, was that you shouldn't assume or pontificate that your way and opinions are the only valid ones out there. This thread started with Chris's surprise that he likes and uses the motorized stage so much more than he thought he would; why can't we leave it at that? Or if Mike finds the tilt head very useful or critical for his work, well, I think that's interesting and fine. But to say a piece of gear is unnecessary or especially to imply that someone's operating is less skillful because they own a widget - well, I don't get it, especially if you've never owned it (and there are, or were, many valid reasons not to). Worse, I don't think the comments, or the attitude they represent, are helpful or informative, and I find that a waste of your considerable experience.

 

Jerry

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