3D for the first time

[Dan Coplan]

 

So the Neutron has no controls for changing the IA (S3D community wants us to use Inner-axial and not Ocular) or they just haven't finished the stereo rig yet?

 

-Alfeo

 

Right now control of IA + C is controlled manually by thumbwheels on the motion plate but estimates have remote control of these settings (wired and wireless) at a couple weeks away.

[Thomas English]

I am on a feature film right now with two RED s on the PS Technik rig. Long days hard days. I am trying to push everything I can onto the Rickshaw but there are somethings that are simply not possible on a Rickshaw.

 

The rig with the genlock accessories, Ultraprimes and two c-motions max's out my G70 arm. I got stitched up the other day because they put on the two 32mm Ultra Prime lenses. These with their LLD circuitry are much heavier. This caused me problems for sure.

 

I am only tethered with two skinny BNC cables so that is ok.

[Dan Coplan]

I am on a feature film right now with two RED s on the PS Technik rig. Long days hard days. I am trying to push everything I can onto the Rickshaw but there are somethings that are simply not possible on a Rickshaw.

 

The rig with the genlock accessories, Ultraprimes and two c-motions max's out my G70 arm. I got stitched up the other day because they put on the two 32mm Ultra Prime lenses. These with their LLD circuitry are much heavier. This caused me problems for sure.

 

I am only tethered with two skinny BNC cables so that is ok.

 

I hope you're getting fairly compensated. I think it's important to put the word out there that flying two RED's is not acceptable.

[Eric Fletcher S.O.C.]

I am on a feature film right now with two RED s on the PS Technik rig. Long days hard days. I am trying to push everything I can onto the Rickshaw but there are somethings that are simply not possible on a Rickshaw.

 

The rig with the genlock accessories, Ultraprimes and two c-motions max's out my G70 arm. I got stitched up the other day because they put on the two 32mm Ultra Prime lenses. These with their LLD circuitry are much heavier. This caused me problems for sure.

 

I am only tethered with two skinny BNC cables so that is ok.

 

I hope you're getting fairly compensated. I think it's important to put the word out there that flying two RED's is not acceptable.

 

 

What is acceptable Dan?

[Alfeo Dixon SOC]

What is acceptable Dan?

SI-2K's

[Thomas English]

Why would two RED s not be acceptable? Since when is it our place to stipulate a 2k camera when a 4k is required for the production. On film we can argue bodies as the lenses and stock are the same. We don't have that negotiating power in digital. Theoretically this film is for IMAX but we aren't framing for IMAX so I don't know and its not my place to opinion-ate. I do see what you are saying and I am clearly using the maximum limit of my G70 as a upper payload barrier. I refuse to carry any more because the equipment is not designed for that. Whilst I can muscle the arm over 70lbs as I did the other day with the 32mm Ultra Primes and their additional battery counter weight. I worry about all the other components. Its a lot of weight on your topstage especially in low mode and particularly as it is not correctly balanced on the topstage (a lot of the counterbalance has to happen from the batteries below.

 

What is hard in 3D is just how stable the mise en scene is. Big wide lenses panning far slower than feels comfortable. The slightest reframe or "searching" and its apparently an NG ed shot. Any sense of floating is am NG ed shot, slightest off level... NG. Any wobble any any any anything that doesn't look like its from a dolly has the stereopticians and Director pull disappointed faces. I know none of this is acceptable on a normal shoot but how many times have you asked for another take and the DoP/Director have said that they loved it just the way it was! That doesn't happen in 3D. Everything is so critical and to be honest... its hard! The main fault I have with the REDs is that I can't put my gyro's on weight wise. I wouldn't know how to power them anyway. With 2 REDS pulling 6 amps each, two C-Motions pulling total 4amps, lots of little genlock box's and extra amp here or there and my transivdeos little ampere its already totally 18 or 19 amps. I am considering only having the gyros and powering everything off a block battery. Do you reckon a block battery could handle a 21 amp load? I don't even know if the gyros would help much especially considering the guage of mains cable I would need to power 21 amps.

 

In anycase: we need not worry. The Epic camera will be out soon. Then we can shoot 4k all day.

 

I think the Alexa. That fully kitted out is lighter than a RED but stripped is heavier. It will be too heavy for Steadicam. Besides its a 2k camera.

[Thomas English]

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So the Neutron has no controls for changing the IA (S3D community wants us to use Inner-axial and not Ocular) or they just haven't finished the stereo rig yet?

 

-Alfeo

 

As far as I have gathered so far, Inter-Occular and Inter-Axial are interchangeable terms for the distance between the two "eyes". Convergence is the other variable that the s3D community is possibly shying away from pulling. Convergence aka "toe" is how cross eyed the eyes are. How cross eyed the are to point at the same object in Z.

 

Essentially if you pull too much convergence you can get key-stoning of the background which messes everything up. So the argument is to only pull IA running convergence parallel and then to do the convergence in post (select where the frame overlaps) this is quicker, easier, gives more options later. Unfortunately you loose resolution. Another working practise is to set convergence for the furthest point away in the shot and pull the rest in post.

 

It is also an argument that is best we stay out of as there seems to be a war going on in stereo land as to the best working practise with many ego's being slaughtered.

[Eric Fletcher S.O.C.]

Why would two RED s not be acceptable? Since when is it our place to stipulate a 2k camera when a 4k is required for the production. On film we can argue bodies as the lenses and stock are the same. We don't have that negotiating power in digital.

 

 

That was my point. We are operators, we knew the dangers when we accepted the mission.

 

Don't like the camera, don't do the job, but know that someone else willnand as long as they are offering a realistic wage what does it matter?

[Charles Papert]

With that logic, why did we have issues with the BL4 or the Gold/Platinum conversions? Or Genesis with the deck?

 

I've been hearing a growing number of stories about injuries and broken gear from overweight setups. Obviously it's up to the operator what they choose to work with, and these days, you can get a decent operator who will fly just about anything for just about any rate. I was offered a high-profile 3D concert with full-size HD cameras on board and gave them my highest rate; they took it but later bailed. Fine with me as I've lost interest in getting peeled for peanuts.

 

It's boring and pedantic and we've heard it all before, but these days it seems more appropriate than ever: consider that one single injury can put you out of work (and overall health) for weeks, months, years, or permanently. And don't trust worker's comp to pay your way for the long term. I've had two wake-up calls on this myself and I'm not looking for a third. It's not always a single event; sometimes it's just the hours you put in with a heavy rig taking its toll over time.

[Thomas English]

Charles, you talk a lot of sense. Since our forum debate a little while ago I never fly the RED battery any more. I still have the top-handle, focus pullers monitor but never the battery.

 

I think anything over 70lbs is overweight. Would you consider 70lbs itself overweight? It doesn't feel that heavy but I think it is and it will take its toll.

 

On film its a DoP's choice of lenses and filmstock. The camera body is really the operators choice so long as it meets the required shutter and frame rates. Digital is complicated. The DoP chooses his camera because he wants its chip processing artefacts over another cameras chip processors. He wants its resolution etc etc. I don't think the Genesis argument stands up since you can always fly tethered. Believe you me if I had a tethered option here I would be all over it. BL4's are before my time but I heard they were heavy. How heavy were they? G70 to the max? I had a platinum on about 6 months ago with the sliding base plate and that also maxed out my G70 arm. Panavision have a lot to answere for with their needlessly heavy cameras. What were they thinking when they built the Genesis? But people used to fly the BL4's day in day out no?

 

The conclusion is clearly that two REDs is too heavy for regular Steadicam work. Thats why you charge extra. I recommend 50% bump on your operators dailies rate and a dailies rate on kit irrelevant to how many days they take you for.

 

I'm glad I don't have a PRO arm otherwise clearly that would probably be maxed out at 75lbs.

[Alfeo Dixon SOC]

I think anything over 70lbs is overweight. Would you consider 70lbs itself overweight? It doesn't feel that heavy but I think it is and it will take its toll.

 

FedEx and UPS limits for standard shipments to 70lbs. Beyond that it becomes freight. Reasoning is that most injuries occurred above the 70lb threshold.

 

I hate to say it, but if it's not regulated then it is up to you to say no to the camera(s) and most likely to the job. Should we be compensated more for above 70lbs, at some point it becomes also an issue of our gear failing... do you really want your arm to snap with not one, but two cameras and a $20K mirror attached to it?

 

We have to fly with responsibility as professionals

[Thomas English]

 

FedEx and UPS limits for standard shipments to 70lbs. Beyond that it becomes freight. Reasoning is that most injuries occurred above the 70lb threshold.

 

 

 

Haha! Brilliant. I'm keeping that.

 

G70 is rated to 70lbs. I'm keeping that as my upper limit. I don't think it will snap. I'm sure they have had 70lbs Duracell bunnies jump up and down on that arm for months to make sure its safe.

[Dan Coplan]

What is acceptable Dan?

 

The question isn't so much what is acceptable, rather it's what's not acceptable. In my opinion, two RED's simply isn't acceptable. It's a ridiculous amount of weight that puts both your gear and health at risk. But I'm not judging. Ops can fly whatever the hell they want. I put a Dalsa Origin on my rig (**very unnaceptable - did it just to see if it was possible**). My point is more that producers shouldn't be led to believe that flying a beast like a 3D rig outfitted with RED's is OK.

 

Am I saying I would never do it? No. But I'd make it crystal clear that it's well beyond the norm and would make sure that it was worth my trouble and risk. More likely I'd suggest something far more reasonable or walk.

 

Dan

[Thomas English]

I am concerned about low-mode. I've been doing it but its a lot of weight pulling down.

[Alfeo Dixon SOC]

just doing the numbers with the Freestyle, 2-MDR2, 4-DM2, 2-PowerCubes, 3rd Batt Assembly, CamWave, Archos 5... the Ultra2 weights in at 41lbs. This only leaves 14.5lbs for each camera and with a "around 10lbs" RED with Ultra Primes

 

Your looking at Maximum payload of 88.8 without brackets for motors and cables