Alternative Brands, thoughts?

[Brett Manyluk]

Those look great on paper, but I also notice that same battery type and casing sold under different brand names. Any idea who the actual manufacturer is? And are they really are the same batteries, or are they are just raw parts assembled in different factories. AND if they really ARE all the same with different name plates, who has the cheapest deal going?

[richard bellon]

hi all

i just got VECT batteries (4x 160s) and they seem to be awsome,

[Joel San Juan]

Hi,

 

Am using the SWIT 190wh so far and its been great.

So far has last very well on Alexa and Red shoots.

Never had to deal with Genesis or F23 so can't speak

for that but it has held up great on the shoots

I've been on.

 

Hope that helps

 

Joel

[John Ritter]

Hello All

 

I just got around to reading this Thread, Figured I may as well jump In.

 

I Re-Cell/Re-fill/Rebuild the full line of Anton Bauer Batteries from ProFormer to Dionic.

 

There is no great mystery to a battery refill/re-cell as just about every manufacturer use's

standard size individual battery cells to build their pack designs. The installed electronics

handle safety and current limitations for both discharge and charging plus other features such as

load/time calculation, battery memory storage and communication with the charger/camera.

During a Re-Fill/Rebuild none of the original electronics are changed or altered, only the cells are replaced,

(kind of like when you gas up your car when it is on empty, your car does not know the difference between gasoline brands

you can use Mobile,Chevron,etc and your car will work just like it was manufactured to do)

Now there are variables with cells such as wattage rating, discharge handling, capacity relate this to the same

example of gasoline in your car to octane rating (high test~regular medium-low octane).

 

So a Re-cell will get your battery back to original specifications and in most case's better than original.

(case in point older propac 14 battery's were built with a 4000 mAh spec cell, advances in battery construction have

been made so that 5000 mAh is the current default standard)so the old 55/60 watt battery will be re-celled to 72 watts.

 

With the Hytron 100,120,140 all get re-celled to the 140 watt capacity since the difference in cell cost at bulk pricing

is very minimal and logistically stocking 3 cell capacity's in the same physical size does not make sense.

 

The Dionic series all use standard OEM size Li-Ion cells in various parallel-series configurations to achieve a certain capacity.

This area of battery construction is a rough competitive area and many import cell manufactures make some exorbitant claims to cell capacity so buyer beware! The one consistent standard is the 2200 mAH cell that is widely available from several reliable manufacturers.

This same cell can be claimed as a higher mAh cell when used with specific chargers that will charge them to a higher voltage.

All Li-ion battery pack systems will have a PCB (protection control board) that will control charging limits, discharge current flow, low voltage cut-off etc. These can be generic or OEM specific, the battery pack will contain at least one or more normally these do not require replacement but they do go bad from time to time. (note if a Li-Ion cell is discharged below 2.5V it is ruined or in the case of a battery pack 10 volts)

 

Anton Bauer also use's temperature and over-current devices in their control design plus the fuel gauge output calculation circuitry

and Memory Eprom that store cycle count, serial number, charge condition etc..

Also the case design is far superior to any other brand on the market (They can be re-celled indefinitely).

 

Just about all of the Import Non Name brand Li-ion battery's are based on the Sony/IDX design and follow the same basic case and PCB electronic design with the exception of the actual cell manufacture and cell parameters (which is why you should use the same manufacturers designed charger)

 

All of the V-Lock Sony/IDX style or other import manufacturer case's are a pain to open without some damage to the case or require a cut that has to be resealed making them slightly more expensive to rebuild/re-cell.( case plastic is much thinner, more fragile and very compacted with the circuit board and cells)

 

Remember all Li-Ion type batteries are a limited life, charge/discharge cycle (about 2 years use it or not and 150 to 200 cycles) they also do not handle high current well and usually will damage one bank of cells rendering the pack unusable (all 14.4/14.8 volt packs are made up of 4 banks of 3.6-3.7 cells)

 

Ni-Cd has the best current handling tendency and will recover better from low voltage drains, NiMh has the best cost to performance ratio

both Ni-CD & Ni-Mh have far superior life and cycle (500 plus) and about a 3 year life with up to 70% capacity ( yes I know of plenty of Propac's and Hytrons that are over 5 years old and still work..... but they are no longer delivering anywhere near 70% of the original capacity)

 

So when making a purchasing decision you have several factors that need to be considered for a battery pack purchase.

1st and foremost is calculate the total amount of power you require for a set amount of time include all accessories and the lens servo motor load in your calculation (Note camera manufacturers usually do not calculate lens servo motor load into the cameras wattage rating)

Now shop for the battery based on manufacturers reputation and reliability and your budget sometimes you have to make do with what is affordable not necessarily the best.

 

If anyone is interested in recell/rebuild you can contact me here or at 954-557-9765 (I am in Fort Lauderdale Florida)

Mention that you are a Steadicam forum member for special pricing.

 

Regards John Ritter

[Tuomas Viitakoski]

Hello all,

After reading through every battery-related thread here I'd like to bring back this conversation.

 

...

.. Who's using them, how have they been, how are the chargers, charging time, flakiness factor, capacity, price, performance, lifespan, did it burn your house down, are you on a no-fly list for too many made in china products in your possession, etc, etc, etc...

Thoughts?

Again, this thread already recognizes that Pag, Anton Bauer, and IDX/Tiffen are the cream of crop. Moving on to the wallmart section of B&H...

Thanks!

Three years ago the first Alexa model was introduced and I guess many of you needed to replace your batteries to meet the new power requirements.
Would be nice to hear your experience with the battery types you chose.
How has your "alternative brand" batteries worked over the past few years?

 

[Tuomas Viitakoski]

Here's one comment from James Puli
Original post: http://www.steadicamforum.com/index.php?showtopic=17776&p=85680

 

Globalmediapro are fantastic!
I've been running their gold (AB) mount batteries on my rig for about 5 years, and have purchased lots of gear from them over the years!
They have actually just released some new HC batteries for digital cameras! That's next on my shopping list!
I can't recomend them highly enough!!

 

 

Would like to hear about the setups you've used them in? Broadcast? Film? Digital cinema (e.g. ARRI Alexa)?

 

 

[James Puli]

Hey Tuomas.

 

I still have my GlobalmediaPro Batteries and just bought a bunch more. In the past 6 years, Ive never had an issue what so ever!

 

Used with broadcast (live ob's - most recently Pink's Aussie concerts), features, tv drama, commercials etc

(film 16 and 35mm, digital, alexa, f65, f55, red one, epic etc).

 

I carry 6x95's and 4x160's. Never run out of power.

Plus I carry a 230wa batt just for powering accessories such as Boxx Receiver etc.

 

I like having 2 diff weight batteries as it gives me more flexibility for dynamic balance!

 

GlobalMediaPro have recently released batts compatible with Red cameras (with readouts etc) and also a few HC versions,

which apparently have a 30% increased run time over the old ones. But I haven't used them as yet.

 

JP

[Eric Fletcher S.O.C.]

I like having 2 diff weight batteries as it gives me more flexibility for dynamic balance!

 

ummmm. balance the sled once and never have to dick with it again

[Martin Stacey]

Hi Tuomas,

 

I have been using Globalmediapro batteries for over 8 years. I have 6x95ah and 10x190ah as I have 3 different sleds now but used to have 6 sleds of different manufacture. The original batteries that I bought have started to die in the last year or so but in general they have been brilliant. I've never failed to run a camera with them and have managed over 4 hours non-stop run time on an Alexa in 24volt mode on my AR Revolution with V2 electronics which are known for some dropoff in voltage from the bottom to the topstage but I'm sure there are plenty who are happy to tell you about that.

Over the same period I have killed off over a dozen Dionic 90's, half a dozen Hytron 140's, half a dozen Hytron 50's and half a dozen Proformers. While I like Anton Bauer batteries I will simply say the Globalmediapro batteries in my experience have simply outlasted them and have powered everything I have thrown at them.

The new HC's are next on my capex list.

[Brant S. Fagan SOC]

Why would you open up your trusted workflow to a power source made so far away that true customer support is actually impossible? A/B gear has NEVER let me down whether on a simple domestic job or on a feature around globe even in the mountains of Ethiopia. Save some money? Maybe. But that one time the gear crashes, especially a digital camera/recorder system (read computer with a lens port) that is totally power dependent? Not worth it.

[John Ritter]

 

Hi Tom,

 

There is a fellow who posts up in the "Steadicam-Marketplace" forum here. He has an eBay storefront as well. A quick peruse through "Marketplace" and you will find it. He posted, I believe, about a month ago.

 

I have spent some time poking around locally and have found one that will do it. There are several that come up in Google as well. If they recell NiCads, they should be able to recell them. Things like TrimPacs and Hytrons are candidates for recelling.

 

There appear to be quite a few veteran ops that recell their Hytrons and such. Hopefully they will chime in with some of their experiences particularly with the problems some of the recellers may have with some of A/B proprietary "Logic Series" stuff they have in the batts.

Thanks Andrew. Do you know if Dionic 90s can be recelled?

 

 

Hi Andrew

 

The Dionic 90 and All the professional video camera batteries can be repaired/refilled/Re-celled.

The choice to Re-Cell will be an individual one due to each operators preference for size/style/shape/cost/power requirements.

 

I have several clients that still use Steadicam ultra-master series packs and others that use Proformers (upgraded to NiMh cells and used successfully with an Arri Alexa),

and everything else in between.

 

Anton Bauer batteries are still the best made battery product on the market (case build, electronics, warranty, durability, mount, etc.) they can be re-celled infinitely.

The Dionic 90 series appears to be the most popular followed by the Hytron 140 packs. (I have rebuilt over 2000 of them and a few 1000 Hytrons)

The HC & HCX series are coming in 3rd (they are also recent entry into the market)

 

Now with that said.....Moving on to all the import brands (most are the same manufacturer with private/individual labeling) Most of them are pretty good and

I have to admit price wise they can be a substantial saving. I have heard good & bad reports on them, most appear to be favorable.

 

The most important feature when buying any brand battery pack is to know how old (actual age-date of manufacture) it is, as it is not unusual to

buy packs that have been in the distribution/retailer stream-inventory for 2-3 years (so you could be purchasing an older battery that is being sold as brand new).

 

Battery packs are considered an expendable item... they will go bad use them or not! consider an average life expectancy of 3 to 3.5 years from the manufacture date

allowing for an output of 60% or better of original rated capacity. (and yes I do get packs in that are much older and clients gotten usable results after more than 5-6 years, thu not a norm).

 

2nd thing to look for on any given battery pack is the rated maximum continuous draw rating as this will be much less than the stated watt rating, there are many

claims of wattage that are tested at .02C or 1/5th of the full rating. As an example a 90 watt battery will run a 20 watt camera for almost 4.5 hours but will only

power a 70 watt camera like a RED or Alexa for maybe an hour.

 

Li-Ion based battery packs are very susceptible to shock damage/failure (such as a drop or bump during transport) and over discharge/high load (over current) damage.

 

A lot of factors can effect usable life, storage, temperatures, discharge/recharge, use cycle, etc.

 

As to V-Lock versus AB gold mount all I can say is both work, but I have traced a few dozen battery issues down to bad/worn V-Lock/pin problems,

but in 6 years of doing Battery repairs/Re-Cells I have not come across any Anton Bauer battery plate/mount issues.

 

I can repair/Re-cell any brand of battery pack, they will be returned clean and in an as new working condition, to original manufacturers spec or in some case's slightly better.

all functions will work and the appropriate chargers will recognize and charge them just as before, my standard Re-cell warranty is 90 days/12 months prorated (about equivalent to OEM warranty),

cost can be a significant savings over new but not always (I have to admit, some pretty great prices on the import stuff ).

 

Give me a call if you need more info or clarification.

 

Regards John Ritter 954-557-9765

www.ritterbattery.com

[Tuomas Viitakoski]

Why would you open up your trusted workflow to a power source made so far away that true customer support is actually impossible? A/B gear has NEVER let me down whether on a simple domestic job or on a feature around globe even in the mountains of Ethiopia. Save some money? Maybe. But that one time the gear crashes, especially a digital camera/recorder system (read computer with a lens port) that is totally power dependent? Not worth it.

Brant, I second that. There are only handful of companies where I've received that level of service from.

You can call or throw an email to the engineers at Anton/Bauer if there's something you are wondering about. My local A/B dealer even arranged a Netherland-based engineer to visit me so we could go through the key things inside the technology.

And I don't consider their batteries pricey - they worth of the money paid. I think their 43 years of experience has something to do with that.

 

 

And here's a simple graph just for reference showing results of Anton/Bauer Dionic90, DionicHC, DionicHCX and two unnamed brands/products.

Note: the tests have been performed in laboratory under more or less perfect conditions so the actual cycle counts will be different in the "real world" use depending on hot/cold enviroment, storing, over-discharging etc as John Ritter mentioned in his previous post.

 

 

Anyhow I wanted to re-open the discussion here about the "knock-offs" or "china batteries".

I'm really suprised to read what James and Martin are telling here (thank you guys for your comments!) - and I'm glad that the solution has worked for them.

Would need to buy one and tear it open to see the weldings, electronics and type of isolating/housing they've used. There's something they must be doing right.. ..right?

One (I guess) is the price/production volume.

[Tuomas Viitakoski]

.....Moving on to all the import brands (most are the same manufacturer with private/individual labeling) Most of them are pretty good and

I have to admit price wise they can be a substantial saving. I have heard good & bad reports on them, most appear to be favorable.

 

Hi John,

Could you please share some bad reports?

[John Ritter]

 

.....Moving on to all the import brands (most are the same manufacturer with private/individual labeling) Most of them are pretty good and

I have to admit price wise they can be a substantial saving. I have heard good & bad reports on them, most appear to be favorable.

 

Hi John,

Could you please share some bad reports?

 

 

Hi Tuomas

 

I would rather not repeat any reports here on a public forum.

I cannot confirm (thru testing, Lab analysis etc.) any of the information relayed to me, so it would be unfair to comment 2nd hand.

 

 

Regards John

[Tuomas Viitakoski]

 

 

.....Moving on to all the import brands (most are the same manufacturer with private/individual labeling) Most of them are pretty good and

I have to admit price wise they can be a substantial saving. I have heard good & bad reports on them, most appear to be favorable.

 

Hi John,

Could you please share some bad reports?

 

 

Hi Tuomas

 

I would rather not repeat any reports here on a public forum.

I cannot confirm (thru testing, Lab analysis etc.) any of the information relayed to me, so it would be unfair to comment 2nd hand.

 

 

Regards John

 

Hi John,

You are absolutely right about that and I thank you for the direct answer. (Also the contaminated 2nd hand information is no good ;) )

 

Next week I'm going to shoot a TVC and the camera dept apparently has this kind of batts that are few years old. Will try them out.