SmallHD DP6, worth it? (Pilot setup)

[Torben Greve]

I just saw an extensive test where it was the only one that was remotely viewable in sunlight. The others were the dp6, the 5" marshall and some fourth monitor.

[Dave Wowchuk]

I own the Marshall 6.5" STX monitor, and it works very well outdoors in direct sunlight. I was shooting for 12 hours outside this week under varying conditions, in Steadicam and non-Steadicam use. There were times where a hood may have helped, but for the most part it performed adequately.

 

The Cinetronic is probably amazing ... would love to see one sometime.

[Charles Papert]

One thing we learned at the Monitor Shootout a couple years ago is that everyone has a different concept of what "daylight viewable" means. Beforehand, there were those who swore by certain monitors that, in comparison to others on the day, performed terribly. Chances are they had arrived at their decision based on whatever monitor that had before; when given something that performed better, they felt it was the be-all and end-all.

 

The Marshall transflective was a decent performer at the shootout, particularly for the money, but it wasn't the best against some of the other offerings even back then. And it was mutually agreed that the green screens we had onboard as a comparison were far more viewable.

 

We are lurching towards putting the Great Transmitter Debacle together and I plan to have a very limited version of the monitor shootout incorporated into that--at the very least, a Cinetronic and TB6 adjacent to each other.

[RonBaldwin]

I am looking forward to helping Charles on the Transmitter Debacle (looking for portable stripper pole and mobile eye-wash station as we speak). It will be edumacational...and frustrating if Marianne shows up.

 

And...I too would love to see some side by side comparisons between the trusty old tb6 and the new guy on the block that has some saying it's the best thing since the toilet lever or the afore mentioned portable stripper pole. I am patiently awaiting the smaller versions of the Fletcher-Starling tronic ( :D ). Those may be better for me if they are as bright or at least close to their bigger brothers.

 

rb

[chris bangma]

We did a side by side comparison of the TB6 and the Cinetronic 6.5" and 7" at the stabilizer gear expo. Maybe some of the operators who saw it will chime in with their opinions.

[RonBaldwin]

I have heard the hype but I want to see it with my own eyes. I have talked to those that have seen it...some say it is better than a tb6 and some say it is not as good. As Charles said everyone is different and has different opinions. I don't doubt it is wonderful, I just want to see it next to the standard by which all are (were?) measured with my own eyes. Looking forward to seeing it and having a life altering experience!

 

Ron

[Torben Greve]

I read that thread and it's all interesting, but whenever I else comparisons they always seem to refer to some test done inside or at best in not-sunny weather... preferable also in a vertical position. No one seems bold enough to do that direct sunlight test. Why not test gear at the most challenging setup? That's where it's supposed to shine.

With tech today there's no real reason why you shouldn't be able to purchase small hd monitors with anti-glare / transflectiveness for a small price. The only reason is that the manufacturers have to have something to "improve" their product with for the next generation or two... heck, I'm sitting at a 24" Eizo monitor with anti-glare and what not for the meager price of $2500, so why do I have to pay more than twice this to get something remotely in the same quality in a monitor a fraction of the Eizo monitor size?

 

Sorry, I'm probably being ignorant here. I just have a hard time finding justification for the price tags around in relations to what you're getting. Small market = less competition = higher prices?

 

I don't know about those TB6 and Cinetronics... I was comparing 4 other monitors :) that are approx in the same price range (1000-1600), and where the Marshall 6.5" seems to be the one best able to withstand sunlight. I'll see if I can look it up again (was random googling).

Edited July 2, 2011 by Torben Greve

[Charles Papert]

No one seems bold enough to do that direct sunlight test.

 

Don't know which thread you are referring to. The monitor shootout I organized two years ago was in bright sunlight, with all monitors mounted at typical operating height and rotatable in unison between horizontal and vertical.

 

It should be blatantly obvious why manufacturers of Steadicam-specific display can't make them for the same price as a mass-produced computer monitor: Volume. R&D costs. Size of operation.

[Eric Fletcher S.O.C.]

heck, I'm sitting at a 24" Eizo monitor with anti-glare and what not for the meager price of $2500, so why do I have to pay more than twice this to get something remotely in the same quality in a monitor a fraction of the Eizo monitor size?

 

Sorry, I'm probably being ignorant here. I just have a hard time finding justification for the price tags around in relations to what you're getting. Small market = less competition = higher prices?

 

I don't know about those TB6 and Cinetronics... I was comparing 4 other monitors :) that are approx in the same price range (1000-1600), and where the Marshall 6.5" seems to be the one best able to withstand sunlight. I'll see if I can look it up again (was random googling).

 

 

Now take that 24" monitor and take it outside, point the face at the sun and look at, you're not going to see a damn thing. Then there is the small issue with it holding up to the production environment. How well do you think that monitor you're sitting behind is going to work when the rain towers are dumping 3000gpm on you.

 

The cost? Well that comes from engineering and manufacturing a waterproof housing, hibriting a LCD panel, bonding a protective screen to it, designing and building custom controller boards and the writing the software for that runs it. Oh yeah and taking a meager profit so you can afford to build a few hundred of these over a 5 or 10 year period.

 

A few years ago Charles worked his butt off to do a monitor shootout and compare all the players in direct sun and no LCD could beat a green screen and really no LCD could be called daylight viewable solution for Steadicam operators. That has changed but only since April of this year with the Cinetronic

[Mark Schlicher]

Yup. Until the Cinetronic, every other LCD at any price was a compromise. A compromise some ops were willing to tolerate and others were not.

 

I played with Robert's Cinetronic at Cinegear, and it really is daylight viewable in worst-case direct sun. No compromise.

 

Let's keep this discussion in perspective. We're talking about a Pilot. How much compromise is acceptable? What is cost-effective? The Marshall 6.5 is pretty darn good for the money but might actually be too heavy. It's also a big chunk of change measured against the Pilot's price.

 

For a Pilot an interesting compromise might be a 450nit Lilliput HDMI/composite/component monitor with their added transflective treatment. Their monitors start in the $200 range and if I remember correctly adding the treatment is another $200-300. www.lilliputweb.net. So you're around $500 for something that might be considered acceptable, considering the Pilot's price point. A solution based on a cheap, mass-produced monitor (with all its implied shortcomings.) I've never tried it but I would be interested to hear if someone else has.

[chris bangma]

A little monitor education for everyone, and why things cost what they do.

 

People wonder why a steadicam monitor costs so much, when you can buy an LCD TV for a $300. Here is the reasoning behind this, and why the Cinetronic monitors cost what they do.

 

LCD Screen Brightness - First off, nobody is really making high bright screens. Any high bright screen that you see over 1000 nits is a conversion. To do the conversion, several things have to happen. First the backlight films have to be changed. This is what directs the light, and focuses it forward. Most screens use cheap films, to save cost. This also wastes a lot of brightness potential. A good set of films can run $50-100 per screen, and have to be changed by a technician in a clean room. When the screens are being sold for cheap dvd players or consumer goods, they do not spend the money for good films. Second the backlight needs to be changed to a higher brightness backlight. Several things have to be done here... First the backlight needs to be removed, and a new backlight board designed with more LED's. This involves cost in engineering the backlight, manufacturing the backlight, testing the backlight etc. Also the leds in the backlight cost more, than the standard ones. This is because we are using the highest brightness leds available, and because we have to pay a premium for the correct color LED's. White LEDS always vary in color, and usually you just get a mix of what the manufacture sends. But, if you pay a premium, they will test every one, and match the colors for you. This way we can ensure that you get accurate color from screen to screen. Once all of this is done, then we need to design a new LED drive to supply the power to the higher brightness leds, since the stock one will no longer work.

 

LCD Resolution- Contrary to what people think, smaller is not cheaper. Small high resolution LCD screens cost more than their larger counterparts. Often times, a 12" screen will be half the cost of the same resolution 6.5" screen. This is due to the manufacturing, since as the pixel size gets smaller, so do the tolerances. Which means that of the smaller screens, the manufacturer has a lower yield. Since there are less screens to sell out of every batch, the price goes up. Our monitors use the highest resolution screens available in their sizes, which means we also have to pay the highest prices for those screens.

 

LCD Controller- A controller is needed to interpret the video signal, and scale it to fit the LCD screen. There are only 2 controller manufacturers that sell just bare controllers that support HD-SDI signals. If you want to do composite, then there a plenty, but HD-SDI is a very limited market, so the prices are very high. You are also at the mercy of the asian companies that make these and have to pay what they demand. This is one of the reasons we have embarked on building our own LCD controller,but building one from scratch is prohibitively expensive! Even if we sell 1 Cinetronic monitor to every Steadicam operator worldwide, we still would not profit by having our own controller. This is why we are hoping to have a bigger market as well, which then justifies building our own controller. It also allows us to have full control over its design, and features. And most importantly allows us to build the controller in USA.

 

Housing- As many have seen our housing is pretty beefy and rugged. Our housings start off as a 20 pound block of aluminum and gets CNC machined down to a couple pounds. First off, the aluminum costs a fair amount, and second the many hours on the cnc machine cost as well. But in the end you have a very rugged and strong housing, which is sealed against the elements, and designed for the type of business we work in. Apple computer CNC machines all of their new computers, since it is the best way to make a product that is small and light. We also could have made the housing out of stamped metal, or plastic, but this would require vent holes for cooling or fans. The housings for the Cinetronic monitors are designed to be the heatsink for all the components inside. Why add vents of fans, when the whole housing can do it for you?

 

Lastly, our goal is to eventually proudly design and manufacture as much of the monitor in USA as possible. This means paying for US labor rates, and hiring Americans to do the work. Our current controller is made in China, which is one of the reasons why we are designing our own. With the new controller the following will be done in the US.

-Convert the screens to high bright (unfortunately the US does not make any actual screens)

-Bond optical anti reflective glass

-Design, program, manufacture and assemble the controller boards.

-Design, manufacture and assemble the housings.

-Proudly print "Designed and Manufactured in USA"

 

Hopefully this gives an insight into the LCD business, and why the prices are what they are. We encourage people to ask other companies where they monitors and components are made. We also hope to offer everyone the best support possible, and invite you to come by any time, and see how we make the monitors.

[Robert Starling SOC]

Chris's post should be moved to Monitors or copied there and pinned as a permanent overview on monitors.

 

Well done!

 

Robert

[William Demeritt]

We also hope to offer everyone the best support possible, and invite you to come by any time, and see how we make the monitors.

 

And bring the man a Diet Coke or Diet Pepsi!