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Using the new Fawcett Exo Vest from Tiffen


Peter Abraham

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Then there is their pricing model, the G70 arm has $1900 dollars worth of parts in it......

 

I'm really curious where this number comes from. Care to share?

Equipos ( http://equipoisinc.com/documents/EquipoisBrochure-2011.pdf ) which sells the EXACT SAME ARM for industrial use sells it for SIX THOUSAND........ and that includes a tool fixture which is a gimbal!

Once again curious where this number comes from. Every source I've seen has said that the

Zero G4, the arm that looks like a G series arm, costs around $10,000, not the $6000 you state. As for it being the exact same arm, I'm pretty sure the G-70 has a 70lbs max load, not the 36lbs quoted in the Equipois's spec sheet. If anything, The G-Series arms are cheaper for the equivalent models. The Zero G 4 would cost around $11,00 with arm posts and a socket block, without the upgraded springs. The G-50x is $11,000 ready to fly.

If you're trying to stat a conspiracy, please cite your sources and get your figures straight.

 

Edited for clarity.

Edited by David M. Aronson
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I've tried it, I currently own an LX vest, I have tried a klassen, pro, Artemis ACT 2 vest and almost every current vest from Tiffen in the range.

 

Personally I think it is superb, Incredibly comfortable, switches with the rig further away from your body are effortless compared to other front mount vests, you can breath as comfortably as if you were wearing no vest at all.

One minor issue to solve that they are apparently working on and that is the awkward way the hip spar currently connects, but that aside for me it's the best vest I have ever tried.

 

If I had the money right now it would be the vest I would buy tomorrow above all others

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So what Eric is saying is that a $11,000 arm can be bought for $11,000? How dare Tiffen cheat us out of money like that! We'll just forget about the whole "capacity" issue. No one flies more than a 36 pound rig anyway.

 

G-50 http://www.tiffen.com/displayproduct.html?tablename=steadicam&itemnum=802-7200-13

 

Zero G 4 http://money.cnn.com/2011/03/22/technology/equipois_zeroG/index.htm

That's not what I said David. Go back and read my post

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Eric-

 

The nonsense you spout is getting comical.

 

You were wrong before about the Equipois arms, arms materials, materials science, etc.

 

I thought you’d do better with fact checking before going off again into a world of innuendo, statements not based on facts, and personal bias.

 

350 parts. Most of the screws go into tapped holes in machined parts, so...

 

Regardless, a quick count is over 100 machined parts, plus pads and straps. Compare that to any other vest. Regardless, it is what it is, and there are a lot of parts.

 

And all those parts mean more assembly, more time, more press fitting of pins, more – well, I hope you get the point. It is all hand assembled, BTW, right there in the factory in Glendale. (The factory just moved to Burbank, in case anyone hasn’t heard).

 

You say: “Especially if machined offshore.” Hinting that the machined parts are made elsewhere. Not true. All parts are made right there in LA, within a few miles of the factory (or in the factory itself).

 

No one has ever seen four pivots in context of a vest before. That’s unique, new, and extremely valuable. Big deal that we’ve seen pivots in things like doors, cars, or even medical devices before. Making the leap to apply them to Steadicam operating is harder than you think. Doing that in conjunction with intelligent pad placement and the exoskeleton itself – that’s radical.

 

David already pointed out your ignorance about the arms, but to be clear, the Equipois and the Tiffen arms are not the same. Period. They share some parts like the bones, but much is different. Much. Including the market for those arms. Hence the price difference.

 

You claim to know how much everything at Tiffen should cost. Hell, I don’t know how much it actually costs to make the Exovest (or any other Tiffen product). Nor do I know how much was the considerable investment in the inventing and prototyping, or how to recover those costs. It's not my business. I’m very close to the project, so I’m incredulous that you “know” so much about it, and everyone else should also question your expertise in this matter.

 

What I do know is how good the Exovest is for operating and the operator’s long-term health. Is it for everyone? Of course not. Nor is any other vest.

 

The first batch of the Exovests is being delivered. How the operators who actually use it respond to it – that will be valuable to the community. We know their feedback will be useful to everyone because we’ve used a lot of feedback from operators in the development process, and we will continue to do so.

 

Jerry

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Jerry

Thank you for speaking up. I agree with you, and I understand that the actual cost of an item isn't just in cost of materials. A ton of things go into the making of a new piece of equipment and I respect and appreciate that. My issue isn't really with what you, Garrett, and Chris do, which is make new exciting items for the making our craft ever more vital and excitin, it's how the products are sold, and then how the company stands behind those products.

As you know, I have owned two arms that were made by Steadicam. Both arms had manufacturer defects. The manufacturer never attempted to offer a repair or replacement for either. The squared angles on my Masters Arm cost a lot of money to replace. Similarly the bearings that were reportedly defective in my G-70 cost me my hard earned cash as well.... I really can't afford to buy another piece of equipment unless I know that it is perfectly competent, or that the manufacturer is willing to stand behind that product in the event of a problem and in general.

Additionally, and this is a marketing issue, when introducing a new product on to the market, many manufacturers trumpet the virtues of their wares loudly, offer an incentive for customers to become early adopters, do things to make the buyer eager to get the new item and work with it. All we ever heard were reports from Chris, poorly received reviews from Peter (a victim in process), and finally terse second hand notices about release and cost. Not my idea of successful marketing by Tiffen's Steadicam sales department, and if the overwhelming sentiment of the voices here are any indication, not very good marketing to the most important people involved, THE CUSTOMER.

The product can be the most wonderful thing since sliced bread, but please relay this to Tiffen, it doesn't mean a hill of beans if the customer doesn't trust the manufacturer.

If Tiffen showed some interest in the operators on this forum, and made the customers here feel like they were interested in standing behind their products, then this whole thread would have a completely diffent and far more postive tone to it.

I write this in the hope that there is reflection on the part of all Steadicam manufacturers, but in my mind, the 600lb elephant is sitting in the middle of the room with a brand new vest on.

Respectfully

Jamie

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Eric-

 

The nonsense you spout is getting comical.

 

You were wrong before about the Equipois arms, arms materials, materials science, etc.

 

I thought you’d do better with fact checking before going off again into a world of innuendo, statements not based on facts, and personal bias.

 

350 parts. Most of the screws go into tapped holes in machined parts, so...

 

Regardless, a quick count is over 100 machined parts, plus pads and straps. Compare that to any other vest. Regardless, it is what it is, and there are a lot of parts.

 

And all those parts mean more assembly, more time, more press fitting of pins, more – well, I hope you get the point. It is all hand assembled, BTW, right there in the factory in Glendale. (The factory just moved to Burbank, in case anyone hasn’t heard).

 

You say: “Especially if machined offshore.” Hinting that the machined parts are made elsewhere. Not true. All parts are made right there in LA, within a few miles of the factory (or in the factory itself).

 

No one has ever seen four pivots in context of a vest before. That’s unique, new, and extremely valuable. Big deal that we’ve seen pivots in things like doors, cars, or even medical devices before. Making the leap to apply them to Steadicam operating is harder than you think. Doing that in conjunction with intelligent pad placement and the exoskeleton itself – that’s radical.

 

David already pointed out your ignorance about the arms, but to be clear, the Equipois and the Tiffen arms are not the same. Period. They share some parts like the bones, but much is different. Much. Including the market for those arms. Hence the price difference.

 

 

Jerry,

 

Careful what you say and how you say it since you are the only representative for Tiffen on this board, not only do you have a vested interest in the product but also speak for the company in attitude and words.

 

It's not nonsense

 

I wasn't wrong about Equiposis, materials, materials sciences etc (You on the other hand display a SHOCKING lack of knowledge and just reinforce it when you post)

 

I'm very good at fact checking, in fact I post links, you post at best a link to a wikkipage created by you and tiffen to back up your made up word (Iso-elastic, do we really need to go thru that again)

 

350 parts... BFD Parts count doesn't mean shit in the real world. I'd rather have something with less parts that does the same exact same thing as something with an absurd number of parts (Here's an engineering top tip, when you reduce parts count you reduce failure points)

 

You might want to talk to your "local" machine shop have them clean up their work, it's not very good (It would most likely be close to a 100% reject rate in Aerospace)

 

Your "Radical Leap" isn't. it's just a different application and an overly complex one, like I said you seem to be trying to mask other issues

 

I'm far from Ignorant about the arms (again do we need to teach you again about what's really going on?) David might have actually explored the full Equiposis web site. I've gone further than that and actually have seen and evaluated the arms.... when DISASSEMBLED Side by side with a Tiffen G series they are identical (yeah I've done that) yes the markets are different but it doesn't mean that you need to price gouge. Remember when the G series was first being shown? the G50 was supposed to be sold for less than $6000.... the G70 less than $9000

 

Thanks for proving my points again Jerry You're doing a great job as Tiffen's ambassador

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Guys?

 

Eric's the one with the idiotic claims, axe to grind, refusal to acknowledge his errors, etc.

 

I do not to respond to his every taunt and jibe at Tiffen, but once in a while I feel I must counter his bloaviating.

 

He's entitled to his opinions, but alas, not the facts.

 

Further, his personal attacks on me are uncalled for, and exceptionally rude.

 

Jerry

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Personal attacks do not move this dialogue forward.

Eric sometimes it's better to try using constructive conversation rather than excoriate and eviserate.

If the issue is the price of the Exo vest then keep the dialogue there.

If the issue is customer service, then let's talk about that.

My purpose in this game is to make sure that if Tiffen wants the business of the members of this forum that they improve their customer service, which I believe isn't what it should be. I also want them to be accountable for the products that they deliver. If the product isn't operating properly, then they need to stand by that product, make it work for the customer and not make the customer pay any more for the correction or improvement.

Those aren't attacks, and I don't believe they have been construed as such. They are desires to see a company in this business improve it's standard and change it's priority from profit to customer satisfaction and support..

I don't need to be or really want to be rude in the process or confrontational.

I think we all know how you feel about Tiffen Eric. It's your turn to try to create a constructive dialogue on what needs to happen for them to become a viable and valuable contributor rather than a dinosaur in this industry. Attack is easy, promote the constructive discourse and let's address the hard stuff that way.

Then let's have the cage match!!! Just kidding.

Respectfully

Jamie

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Debate is the cornerstone of democracy and this is a good one. Many well made points.

 

I am excited about the Exovest but not sure about pushing a fully loaded 3D rig or AR with Alexa, codex and monster batteries out on it because there is simply not much there. Maybe its not a bad thing but... I just don't know.

 

Are those 4 upright bars standard 19mm thin walled aluminium? Can we swap them out for thicker walled or 100 % extruded Carbon Fibre (bad idea? Extruded CF?).

 

Not sure if its overpriced or not and I don't work in Tiffen marketing to comment but In a competition between a PRO vest and an Exovest 15 years down the line; which will be still in good condition? I reckon that bottom hinge on the prototype Exovest needs upgrading. I'll break that. I break a lot of stuff that manufacturers told me I couldn't break. Hey a Vita-Mix blender lasted 3 months with me and they are meant to be Meth-smoking hippy proof.

 

I am though very excited about the lower pivot point and if the intellectual property on that is worth the extra $3000 and it truly improves my shots as it likely looks to then I am all for it and good on Chris and Tiffen. Getting into a game of only comodotising manufacturing parts and labour without calculating IP and added KAPOW AWESOME SHOT POSSIBLE value could loose sight of the point... but is a lot of fun.

 

I'll eventually be sure to have one of those things but I might wait for the ExovestX.

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