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2013 New rigs - Real World Improvements?


John E Fry

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Well I don't know if I'm up and coming, already up, or headed down, but I can tell a good tale of modularity that just saved my butt and wallet therein.

 

 

Purchased a Pro1 sled used a while back. Great savings buying used btw.

 

Previous owner had added a dbII and threaded post. Plug and play upgrades.

 

I thought I was hosed for upgrading anything on the old Pro1 sled beyond what was already done. Wrong. I recently found a gen2 lower jbox on the forum. This allowed me to mount up any new battery hanger to my existing sled.

 

Bought a Gen4 hanger from Pro.

 

I can change my post and electronics to HD in the future if I wish, budget permitting.

 

I was able to upgrade my entire sled to a modern power system, at a reasonable price, without selling it and buying an entirely new one.

DBII, Pro Gimbal, Post, Gen2 Electronics, Gen4 Hanger.

 

 

Although I like all the brands of stabilizers, especially that Ultra 2 sex machine, this path is keeping me current and working.

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I am one of those operators that benefits from modularity NOW, but started with a few Tiffen ready-to-run system. I expedited my switch compared to Robert (partly because I didn't have to pay for 2 of the 3), and I think his guidance early on helped me learn some lessons that steered me that way. And believe it or not, some of Eric's words seeped into my thick head. All it took was some repeated bashing ;)

 

I still use a few Tiffen systems for Live work, and their support is great for big corporations. Operationally, I'm 110% confident in stepping onto a set with their equipment. For my personal investment, I love my custom built (by David Hable) HD electronics in my XCS/PRO sled. In fact, the options I had him add turned out to closely mirror the new Pro Cine Live, minus a spare coax line and some AB taps. I love the idea that I can upgrade electronics and stages as the times change, and my XCS post and gimbal are indestructable but upgradeable if needed. And if my time in the Tiffen world gets me addicted to the tilt stage, I'm happy to know that I can bolt one onto my PRO thanks to Betz-Tools.

 

Like Kevin, current and working. With options.

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Do you mean the ULTIMATE 2?

 

I can see where the built in super post could come in handy to get the lens high and low on the quick.

 

Ummmmmm.... unfortunately it doesn't get that high or that low, I can beat the conversion time AND get higher or lower with a PRO or XCS Ultimate

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Hey Kevin!

 

Here's a little test we did in one of my stabilizer workshops with students Daniel Axelbaum flying my XCS Ultimate and Marco Naylor flying his Tiffen Ultra 2.

 

This was the build and fly "High-High" mode. No not that kind of "high" Ron. B)

 

The XCS Ultimate was flying a Sony DSR300 with an 11 lb weight plate. The Ultra 2 was flying a RED and I don't remember which lens but they were both in the 17-19 pound range +/-.

 

We wanted to see what the highest we could get the Ultra 2 built to and how close we could come with a simple arm post extension. Obviously it's not an exact apples to apples comparison just a little fun test but both guys are about the same height and the socket block on the PRO vest is a little higher which makes both arms close to the same height.

 

With two of us working together, it took about 10-15 minutes to extend and balance the Ultra 2 but we never could get it in dynamic balance. I'm sure someone like Jerry could complete the task in 3-5 minutes but we were not racing and I rarely used that feature in my previous Tiffen rigs.

 

We didn't get the exact height with the XCS Ultimate but in TEN SECONDS we were close and still in dynamic balance AND we never extended the post. However, even with the post extended my rig stays in dynamic balance and since I know that rig so well I can definitely get there in 2-3 minutes.

 

Minutes are years on-set when the DP / Director wants to see how it looks high-mode. Ten seconds is better than 2-3 or ten minutes any day. I'm no engineer but I think it would be fair to say an extended post like this would not be as stiff as a 2" post. Also, note the distance from the gimbal to the top stage/camera for each build.

 

Again, not apples to apples here so don't beat me up. If I were planning on doing a lot a work at this height, I'd have obviously extended my post as well but this was just for fun. Hopefully the photos will load in the order I want.

 

Robert

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I am one of those operators that benefits from modularity NOW, but started with a few Tiffen ready-to-run system. ... All it took was some repeated bashing ;)

 

...For my personal investment, I love my custom built (by David Hable) HD electronics in my XCS/PRO sled. In fact, the options I had him add turned out to closely mirror the new Pro Cine Live, minus a spare coax line and some AB taps. I love the idea that I can upgrade electronics and stages as the times change, and my XCS post and gimbal are indestructable but upgradeable if needed.... Like Kevin, current and working. With options.

 

Congratulations Mike and glad you could benefit from my stupid mistakes! Just send me a donation for 10% of what I saved you! :D

 

Robert

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Hey Kevin!

 

Here's a little test we did in one of my stabilizer workshops with students Daniel Axelbaum flying my XCS Ultimate and Marco Naylor flying his Tiffen Ultra 2.

 

(...)

 

Robert

 

 

A couple of points; as a ultra2 owner, I can say that getting in super high or low mode takes me not more than 3 minutes. Also all the instruments that you guys used in order to get the ultimate2 higher is also applicable to ultra2. I see that ultra2 operator in the photos is using a standard length arm post and his socket block is resting at the low point. I would never try to get higher without first raising my socket block and switching to a longer arm post.

 

I think that the photos don’t show the full potential of Ultra2. Even the batteries are still in the upright position an inversion could easily give even more altitude to the camera. Also when we need to reach these heights, we very rarely look straight forward. A tilt down would make ultimate2 loose some serious camera height and would put the gimbal in even less comfortable slanted state whereas by using Ultra2’s tilting stage you can conserve every inch that you gained in height, keep the gimbal confortable and pan friendly.

 

In conclusion, in normal mode, using the same techniques an ultimate2 and an ultra2 could reach the same heights at the same amount of time but if you want to go higher or lower than that, ultra2 has some edge over the ultimate2 by having the “controllable length superpost” and a tilting stage ready to use.

 

When we want to operate in very high or low mode there is always a trade-off. A too high gimbal is not confortable to operate at all and you lose some finesse to it but a long gimbal to camera distance also has also its negative effects by increasing any angular input at gimbal. One should decide how to get higher according to her/his needs but according also to her/his means on his hardware.

 

Just an insight from a daily Ultra2 user about the matter at hand.

 

Fly safe.

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Thank you Evrim! Again it was just a quick test we did for fun. We tried lowering the batteries but they where dragging on the floor at that point and the operator did not yet have an arm post extension.

 

You seem to be a very experienced Ultra2 user. Will you do a little 2-3 minute video of you starting from a standard build and getting to the highest mode you can. Maybe you can show us your method for dynamic balance too even if it takes a moment or two longer or maybe it doesn't.

 

Since it doesn't take you much time, just a simple cell phone video would be great that you can post on YouTube or something. This would be a great help to many of my workshops students and me as well who can't seem to break that ten minute or so time frame on a high-high build with an Ultra 2. Maybe start a fresh thread on it.

 

Thanks!

 

Robert

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Very interesting comparison Robert. I can see the advantages of flying a 2" post with a 12"+ arm post for high mode. Probably eliminating potential for vibration over the Ultra 2. And less quick release levers to adjust to do so.

 

When I think of the Ultra 2, I think of it's long post mostly for extreme low mode. There I could see a longer post and tilt stage helping to get the camera right on the ground. I often only get to about knee height with a d-bracket and longer arm post to hang it from. Theres is always the director that wants it "feet level".

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I meant in no way disrespect to you Robert. I hope you didn’t get that vibe from my post. I’m still a newbie by years of operating. It would be pretty stupid of me to trying to school you about steadicam operating.

 

I just wanted to reply as an Ultra2 operator daily using its features. I wanted to point out a few shortcomings of your admittedly “just for fun” test. I thought; if the results of this test are worth publishing on the forum -and it does- some insight of an ultra2 operator might be a helpful addition as well.

 

Also my primary point was not conversion time but in conclusion, in normal mode, using the same techniques an ultimate2 and an ultra2 could reach the same heights at the same amount of time but if you want to go higher (…) than that, ultra2 has some edge over the ultimate2 by having the controllable length superpost and a tilting stage ready to use.” (Not to mention the motorized stage helping with the hard to reach stage adjustments.)

 

I sure can do the video of me converting the sled to its super high mode. I think I can deliver the 3 minutes conversion time. I promise to shoot and publish this video as soon as possible whether or not I can achieve the 3 min conversion time. (although I find it disrespectful of insinuating that my word is not good enough) Also it might be fair to ask a pro/xcs owner to post a video of him/her converting his/her sled using a dethatched superpost –and even a Betz tilt stage- from start to finish as to compare apples with apples.

 

Do you have any other points in my post sounding wrong to you apart from the conversion time? Again, this is not a sarcastic, rhetorical or unrespectful question. I really like to confirm my train of thought by you.

 

ps: I said nothing about dynamic balance in my post. I don’t have a personal dynamic balance procedure and I never pretended to dynamically balancing a super long Ultra2 easily or fast.

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Ron, I believe the fact that mass above the gimbal is moving further away from it makes all the differnce in not being able to dynamically balance it easily. Again you are dynamically balancing the the sled below the gimbal, not the camera. see "micky" balancing helper video. The camera mass is not equal on both sides.

 

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Ron, I believe the fact that mass above the gimbal is moving further away from it makes all the differnce in not being able to dynamically balance it easily. Again you are dynamically balancing the the sled below the gimbal

 

so if I dynamically balance my rig then extend the post all the way it will be out?

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