Producer finds Op for scale

[Mark Karavite]

Looks like everyone on the east coast was approached for this film. It makes me feel special that I was one of several who they attempted to exploit :-)

 

The best low rate story I have is, while confronted with a similar situation, the DP simply went to production and told them to remove Steadicam from the budget, saying he didn't want to work with anyone who would accept their rates. He explained that he would do the entire show on a dolly, and take the extra time to lay track or dance floor to complete the moves.

 

Nicely done!

[Robert Starling SOC]

Russell is a solid person but I don't need an agent in order to say no to low rates and no one else here does either. Just say no!

 

I've called Russell in the past when a Producer told me one of the RT ops was doing the job for something ridiculous. It turned out not to be entirely true. I also openly and professionally talk to other ops when I hear of bad deals and you know what, buyers can be liars and they don't tell you the whole story or the truth.

 

This is a great thread because it's colleagues working together to discuss challenges in a professional forum. Yes we sometimes compete but if we make it professional colleagues first we're at least a step ahead of the lone "wildebeests" out there being picked off by the aggressive Producers and unrealistic budgets.

 

There are a lot of starting ops who could use some mentoring from the vets as well. Otherwise who is training them how to handle a call?

 

How many times do we all read the same old story; getting started, in debt for a rig, can't make enough money to pay it off or upgrade so they feed at the bottom of the food chain propagating poor rates and business practices with established and up and coming Producers. It adds up to a devaluation and commoditization of the craft and sets a bad precedent. See someone with potential but struggling, give them a little mentoring. See someone who already knows better doing harm then try to get them to see the bigger picture.

 

If we don't get to them and teach them first, then they'll learn by their own devises or in the hooks of a unsavory producer and that causes a problem for everyone.

 

Robert

[Jessica Lopez]

There are a lot of starting ops who could use some mentoring from the vets as well. Otherwise who is training them how to handle a call?

 

How many times do we all read the same old story; getting started, in debt for a rig, can't make enough money to pay it off or upgrade so they feed at the bottom of the food chain propagating poor rates and business practices with established and up and coming Producers. It adds up to a devaluation and commoditization of the craft and sets a bad precedent. See someone with potential but struggling, give them a little mentoring. See someone who already knows better doing harm then try to get them to see the bigger picture.

 

If we don't get to them and teach them first, then they'll learn by their own devises or in the hooks of a unsavory producer and that causes a problem for everyone.

 

Robert

 

 

As a younger op trying to climb this ladder. I definitely agree with this entire thread. I'm glad I'm not getting those calls yet for I would turn it down but consider because I badly need the work. My argument below:

 

Yes, it's been drilled in my head by more financially successful operators. Especially ones that have money to throw around. Steadicam is not a profession for poor people. But with the availability of new small cheap rigs and old used rigs, anyone can get a rig and work for pennies.

 

I get great advice from operators and I am so thankful for it. But I get just as much shit too. It would be nice if someone who has actually been in my shoes, sit me down and discuss rates (Vet ops). Going from the bottom of barely getting by financially to being at the top of their game today. With the economy, dumbed down technology (i.e. Red, Glidecam), saturated market of operators, half ass education, and free labor, how does one compete? Were you guys dealing with this 10-20 years ago? Too my understanding work was more available. Work was more legitimate. Except your average Roger Corman job.

 

At times I feel overwhelmed and in over my head. Did I make the right decision following this career path? I've reached the point of no return. I've invested almost a decade into becoming a Steadicam Operator. I couldn't imagine anything else. I don't want to hurt the thing I love the most in this world and that is this profession. All I can say is help me help you? You want things to stay the way it was or the way it should be then the community needs to actively seek out these desperate operators and talk, advise, and mentor them from making these mistakes. Don't just point fingers, make a post, and send an email. Everything gets overlooked and it all becomes gossip.

 

Happy shooting :rolleyes:

[Dave Chameides]

Jessica,

We've all been where your at and no doubt it's a tough place. Figuring out if you're undercutting or accepting a rate that's lower than it should be is becoming harder and harder to determine. I happen to know who the op is on that Boston job and he's been in the biz for a while. I know that he's aware that it's a crappy rate so my assumption is that he either needs the money, or needs the hours for health insurance, or both. If we were close I'd be talking to him about it but we aren't so i can only conjecture. That said, since he's been around those are the only two options that make sense as he's smart enough to know that we should be getting more. Do i hold it against him? No because at the end of the day, when someone is in trouble, they have to do what's right for them and their family. Sadly the nature of the biz is such that people are forced into making these calls. Some I'm sure will take issue with that statement but if I had a job offered to me that was lower than what i should get for my experience but didn't have enough hours to make insurance for my family, I don't know if I'd do differently. I'd probably put it out there earlier that i needed days and see who could help (other ops have done this with me and I've tried to throw them days) but honestly, I can't say this would be an impossibility, just glad I haven't had to make that call.

 

As for what you should be doing, every job is different of course and we all get paid in different ways. Make sure that the rate they are offering is in line with their budget and your experience level. Some times you're going to nail it and sometimes you'll make a bad decision. Accept that, but learn from those decisions. A lot of people don't talk rates because they feel it's unprofessional but I've always felt that at your level in the game, talking about general rates, rather than a specific job, with ops with similar experience and skill only benefits us all. But those discussions should be one on one rather than here on the forum and aren't hard and fast numbers. My general rule of thumb is am I being taken advantage of for what they are asking me to do and what their budget is/what they are trying to accomplish. That puts in my mind whether they should be paying top rates or not.

 

Some ops are hard and fast about numbers and some are not. I feel you get paid in many ways. I'll give you one example. I was called to do Shame with Steve McQueen who i think is one of the finest living directors out there. Before I heard the rate I had decided to do the show due to the fact that this is the kind of experience I got into this biz for. I anxiously waited to hear what they were offering and as I suspected, it was lower than what I was used to getting, but not atrocious. I had a long talk with the upm about their budget, shooting schedule, and some other info, and did some research on my own and decided that i was ok with it because I was getting the experience of working with a truly great artist adn they weren't taking advantage of me. And in the long run, I think I made the right choice and am happy with my decision. Others may disagree. That said, I was recently offered a bit more for a much larger film and I turned that down because I didn't think the rate was what it should have been. Someone else will likely take that gig. I turned down the Boston job even though i really wanted it (Boston is a location gig for me while NY is a local gig even though i live in CT) because I didn't feel it was right to get paid that rate for that large of a film.

 

So what am I saying? It's not hard and fast but there are good rules of thumb to follow and communication is good. Make sure you'd be ok sharing your rate with another op and if it's a bit lower than usual why you feel that's ok, and you're probably doing alright.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Dave

[Michael Desiderio]

So what does an operator do if his equipment is sufficient for the production in question, but is otherwise lacking or less valuable than what another operator brings to the table? What of the guys who bring $30-40K worth of gear to the table compared to the guys that bring $100K+ to the table?

 

What line do you draw when accepting lower rates; combination of gear value plus operator skill? Same high rate for everyone (squeezing out ops with lesser but still fully capable equipment)?

[Alan Rencher]

I think gear rentals are pretty standardized based on a percentage value.

[Mark Schlicher]

As one experienced op stated succinctly to me, "If it can carry the camera, you should get the rate."

 

Edit: to expand and clarify, he was (and I am) talking about gear rental specifically. When asking about labor rate, he agreed that experience level was a legitimate factor in setting labor rates.

[Alec Jarnagin SOC]

Jessica,

 

You should call local ops in LA to discuss specific numbers, but I'm happy to speak with you about the big picture. Having been tutored by Charles Papert in a small market, we waxed philosophical regularly over cocktails and now I know why he and Dave are so close. There really is a moral compass to follow, but it can most certainly get confusing with insurance hours and mortgage payments....

 

Dave Chameides, will you please jump on some form of public transpiration/ get in your Bio-diesel/hybrid/electric vehicle and come to NYC and have an Organic drink with me? Your work has filled me with envious joy for years and clearly we are cut from the same cloth.... Well said, Mate.

[Dave Chameides]

Alec,

Would love that. i'm in and out for gigs all the time but rarely stay long as I try to get home to the kiddlings. That said, I'll keep it in mind and if i have a multiple day gig with a late call maybe we can grab some farm to table organic soy based fair trade shade grown breakfast feast somewhere.

 

dave

[Mike McGowan SOC]

It's just too hard to have a 'rule of thumb' without posting our rates on line (which I know some of you have issues with). It's a different situation with every operator, every job, director and financial situation.

I've been in the business for 20 years and operating steadicam for 15. I'm fortunate enough to be with Russell Todd and he keeps the world of steadicam rates pretty on point. That being said, I have a pretty standard range for television. I know many, many other operators on many shows in LA, NY, ATL, Miami, Etc who all get within a few dollars of the same hourly rate and the same rental. I doubt very seriously that the 'best' operator in television on the 'biggest' show gets much more per hour or weekly rental (unless they have some other specialty equipment). Features vary a bit more. You get more for 3D and more for 'big budget' (say over 100m) and way less for low budget indies.

 

I'd say if there is room to wiggle, it's on commercials and music videos. The rate can be anything. I have a regular client that calls me for every job. They don't have a ton of money but they do a fair amount of work. It's all distant location (tropical and awesome) and they don't work me too hard. I get taken care of and generally have a good time. The rate is significantly lower than my normal rate. They just do not have the money to pay full rate. If I'm not doing something else, I do the job but it always takes a back seat to a full rate job.

 

Bottom line is that each of us has to make our own decision about what we are willing to work for.

 

My 2 cents.

[Brant S. Fagan SOC]

I walked away as well. It's called scale for a reason. Coincidently, scale is the rough and undesired material (read slag) that forms on metals after the production process. Have some respect for yourself and your hard earned skill set. Oh, remember it's called a weekly rate because it's spread over a week. When they try to prorate your 3-day weekly rate, remind them to divide it by 3 NOT 5 to get the day rate; I have that spelled out for the cheap seats in my Deal Memo, Stand tall, call out 'Set' with confidence, and keep that set of muscles holding back the wind.

[Robert Starling SOC]

It is really nice to see respected and experienced operators come back to the forum and share their insight again. The more we share, communicate and work as colleagues the better off we all are. I've never understood the resistance to discuss rates amongst ourselves, at least in private or among groups in non-public settings and forums. My policy has always been 100% open door.

 

It would probably be fair to say we all do or have done special favors for friends and/or special projects as Dave so eloquently points out we are paid in many ways for our work.

 

Defining unacceptable rates and unacceptable business practices is elusive. What might be an unacceptable rate for someone working at Dave or Alec's level might be totally reasonable for someone with a year or two of experience. It is definitely a sliding scale... to a point.

 

It is also market driven. In Vegas I either get my rate or I simply don't work and the same goes when negotiating work for Alex; he's doing the work so we get full rate for him on 99% of the jobs as well. If you are working as a day player here in Vegas for less than $100-$144 hour plus $650 (live) to $1500 kit rental you are leaving money on the table. Why leave money on the table? In LA and NYC it would be fairly difficult to be so rigid but I know there are ops commanding good rates in those markets so again why leave money on the table?

 

What disappoints me most when we do a competitive analysis for my LA business consulting clients is that there are at least ten operators in that market who consistently show up on every single list (over 20 consults) as a "known low-baller". It's especially disappointing when some of those names have been on the list for 3-5 years or more and they know better. It is a unique perspective and insight into the market but they are private consultations and will remain confidential. It's not just beginner operators on that list either.

 

We live and work in a world where almost all creative services, not just Steadicam are treated as a commodity. We are truly subject to "market price". The corporatization of our world resulted in bean counters with Excel spreadsheets dissecting and controlling the budgets to a level where they truly plug in irrelevant numbers without understanding how the business and crafts work. I've gotten to the point with so called "our budget is" by responding with "who came up with that number?". We further facilitate their thought process when we say "yes" to the first number and fail to negotiate better terms and conditions. We have no one to blame other than ourselves as a group for allowing the degeneration of rates at every level of operator experience and skill. Even our own union has contributed to the erosion of benefits and rates for operators in order to save their own hides. But that is an entirely other rant that I won't introduce here.

 

Robert

[Dave Chameides]

Well said Robert.