Cheap crappy Steadicam dilemma

[Victor Lazaro]

This picture never cease to amuse me.

[William Demeritt]

I made one of those in college. I'll never post the pictures.

[Victor Lazaro]

I made one of those in college. I'll never post the pictures.

Well, now we want to see.

[AndySchwartz]

The arm on that rig looks like a real arm.

 

Whoever came up with a vest that looks like a golf shirt and has the arm look like an actual arm should be applauded in my opinion. I bet that guy flys through doorways with ease and without lubricant.

 

The question is does that arm and this POS knock off rig carry my newest 5D rig?

 

I am talking about this people, not that canon thing we all love so much.

 

http://superflux.in/work/5th-dimensional-camera

[joe carini]

Hello Terry,

 

Here's my 2¢ worth. These systems are already on the market and more to come. People are using the Movi and changing the way images are made. As I'm not but use to be a steadicam operator, and I use that phrase lightly as I soon found out that, that skill was not in me, I turned to remote heads and cranes. Bottom line, you have a professional service to offer, a service that people need. Your charge should be what you charge regardless of what the system is, period. Productions call me all the time with small cameras and don't understand why I charge the same weather it's an Alexa, Panavision with a 11-1 or a Go-Pro..it's time, materials, and professionalism that costs..if it would make you feel any better, up the charge and put the difference in your IRA!

[Lucas Delbanco]

In my opinion, the Chinese knockoff rigs will never really stand a chance in the truly professional market. I do own a knockoff of the Glidecam hd-4000, and I've had the chance to use a friend's pilot, and I can say that the two are completely incomparable. That being said, I know many of us who own these rigs would love some sort of professional support for them. I understand that some companies or vendors may not want to be associated with knockoff brands like Wieldy, Laing, or Flycam, and I respect that. However, for those willing to manufacture parts for these rigs, I can assure you that help would be highly appreciated.

[Alan Rencher]

I'm sure anyone could manufacture parts for those knockoffs, but no third party would be able to offer parts at a price that the owners of those rigs could stomach.

[Iain Baird]

Two things in this thread have come to mind for me

 

One is the distasteful behavior by a few members over what was NOT in my view a hijack - someone show where me Terry was advertising his business or promoting his services and I'll change my opinion on this.

 

The other is more to the point that Terry started with - Should he take work from the low end of the quality spectrum?

As a freelancer I charge a certain rate for my services, I don't question the quality of the production offering me the work if they meet my requested rate - Bad Writing, Bad Actors, Bad Director....WHATEVER. Are they paying my rate? When I'm busy and have a few offers at once obviously my criteria for choosing work has more variables, including comparing the before mentioned departments. But if you are paying what I'm asking it's not up to me to question the quality of all the other choices you are making - show me the money (it's not like we get points)

 

IB

[JobScholtze]

I just thought Terry clearly didn't want/or was not able to help those owners.

 

I didn't see a bad thing

 

Janice

As a moderator you should see the little rudeness in that post. And roberts comment on that was more then fair. Terry didn't email the guy with " i don't want to make cables for you" He is just worrying about what quality he will be able to make with all those cheap knock offs on the market.

[Blaine Baker]

Hey Gang,

Tough crowd we've got here. Look I apologize to the operators who I may have offended, as a customer of Terry's, we have of course already spoken about the matter. I dropped a one liner here with no context, but in short I'm just a hobbyist and offered some assistance. Anyone who's worked with Terry knows I'm not taking a dime from his business... and on that note I'm still going to buy cables from him, the man has been doing this stuff for longer than I've been alive!

 

We all need to face the fact that there is a handful of newbie operators with knock-off's out there who are at least looking in the right direction for some accessories, if we try to close the gates on them, they're going to turn to outside sources because we as a community shunned them (eventually they might go for other stabilizers). We should be welcoming these cats with open arms and pointing them in other directions for the good gear, and when they're gear isn't working out for them they already know what the next step is.

 

Secondly, none of these knock-off guys are taking work from professional operators, and if and when that happens, production will see it, or the pros will come knocking on their doors... or something will happen, all the strikes against them have been discussed already, its just not a sustainable business model to be a "professional" and own one of these rigs.

 

To anyone I've offended though, in all seriousness, contact me about it... its not like I'm trying to hide from my mistake, lets just have a discussion. And if you're ever stranded or just visiting in Chicago, I promise you a couch to crash on and my treat to a few drinks. That's what a community is about, no?

 

Back to the topic!

 

Best,

Blaine

[Dave Chameides]

Just read this thread and I'm not surprised at your thought process Terry as you are a stand up guy. That said, none of us is going to stop the proliferation of cheap rigs or bad ops and not having cables is not going to either as they will figure out a way. It seems to me that you make a product, a quality product and you price it according to what you feel the value is and what the market will bear. I'm guessing that you will sell to any steadicam ops who contact you regardless of if they are good or not, as you should. Your space is within your product and not what we do with it or how well. Having said that, I'd say go ahead and sell it to whoever needs it just don't drop your price point for them if it's the same product (not that I'm suggesting you'd do that). Beyond that, I don't see a conflict of interest. The market is the market and my guess is you won't sell many to them for the reasons that have been stated, but I'd actually suggest that were you to decide who to sell to or who not to sell to based on their gear or their abilities would be unfair and not what i'd expect of you.

 

My two cents. Off to sell my new rig and pick up three or four chinese knockoffs on ebay.

 

dave

[Rob Vuona SOC]

Terry,

If You sell to these guys they are just going to buy from you once, then copy your work with a cheaper knock off an inferior product. We all applaud you for your for your loyalty to the profession, so my thought, have your wife make them cables, your off the hook and the money stays in the family and we'll cal it Harly Cables . . . . . LOL . . . .

[Andre Perron SOC]

Hey Gang,

Tough crowd we've got here. Look I apologize to the operators who I may have offended, as a customer of Terry's, we have of course already spoken about the matter. I dropped a one liner here with no context, but in short I'm just a hobbyist and offered some assistance. Anyone who's worked with Terry knows I'm not taking a dime from his business... and on that note I'm still going to buy cables from him, the man has been doing this stuff for longer than I've been alive!

 

We all need to face the fact that there is a handful of newbie operators with knock-off's out there who are at least looking in the right direction for some accessories, if we try to close the gates on them, they're going to turn to outside sources because we as a community shunned them (eventually they might go for other stabilizers). We should be welcoming these cats with open arms and pointing them in other directions for the good gear, and when they're gear isn't working out for them they already know what the next step is.

 

Secondly, none of these knock-off guys are taking work from professional operators, and if and when that happens, production will see it, or the pros will come knocking on their doors... or something will happen, all the strikes against them have been discussed already, its just not a sustainable business model to be a "professional" and own one of these rigs.

 

To anyone I've offended though, in all seriousness, contact me about it... its not like I'm trying to hide from my mistake, lets just have a discussion. And if you're ever stranded or just visiting in Chicago, I promise you a couch to crash on and my treat to a few drinks. That's what a community is about, no?

 

Back to the topic!

 

Best,

Blaine

Thank you Blaine for one of the best enlighten response on this forum!

[brett.mayfield]

I respect Terry's commitment to the professional community and can understand the hesitation to opening one's business to a client base that does not fuel their creative or professional desires. Maybe not everyone, but I do bet some of us have restrictions on what we are willing to shoot, even when the price is right. For example, I dont shoot porn and I dont shoot weddings. Maybe I have in the past, but now I dont open myself to the kinds of opportunities that I dont want to take, sometimes based on moral grounds, sometimes based on professional interest. But these are always evaluated and considered on a case-by-case basis.

 

Terry, I / we very much appreciate your consideration to our thoughts on these lower-tier stabilizers, and if you feel like you are not passing up an opportunity that you would otherwise want to take, then let them get their cables elsewhere. Perhaps by not building them cables you are helping to keep these rigs on the shelves and off the sets.

For the sake of being diplomatic I will say that in time your feelings can change, and I dont think anyone would take issue with that. If you feel that hooking a client on a lower-tier rig will reap some benefits for your business in the future, then maybe you do build them cables, just as it has been nice for me to do a low-rate music video for a DP who then brings me on to a high-budget commercial campaign. It doesnt matter to me for whom you make cables, I will still buy from you and I would bet that the rest of our community feels similarly.

[Lee Clements]

At the risk of a strange introduction, here's what I've done. I decided to buy one of the ProAim knock-offs--the Flycam Flujo, to be specific. I did so for a few reasons: firstly, having actually put hands on it when a friend bought one, I recognized that the bones were there, and the ability to not only hold a camera, but to let me adjust balance and arm tension; secondly, I wanted to see if I could make such a thing work at a professional level; and thirdly, I simply cannot justify (in the market here in Virginia Beach) the upfront investment of a "real" rig--however, by keeping the cost of my rig low, I've been able to get a few other accessories that wouldn't be available if I had dropped the $10k+ upfront, even on a used rig from someone here in the forum.

 

I have completely gutted the thing--the wires are cheap, there's way too much extraneous crap, key points were made of incredibly poor materials--and rebuilt it as I see fit. Currently stuck on a post cable solution (seeing if I can DIY that too, before I ask the likes of Mr. West to make one), but I'm pretty happy with the rig as it is. As soon as I get parts back from the machine shop, I'm going to start running it through the ringer with every camera I have access to around here. (If you're interested, I've been keeping track of what I've been doing: http://diffusedlight.wordpress.com/2013/12/27/flycam-flujo-the-overhaul-pt-1/)

 

Would I recommend it to anyone else starting out? Absolutely not. I took a Steadicam workshop five years ago, taught by Dave Svenson, Steve Fracol, Jay Kilroy, and Andy Schwartz, with access to everything from a Flyer to an Ultra. I'm the de-facto Steadicam "teacher" at my university, and every person I train (on our increasingly frustrating Glidecam X-22) hears my lectures about taking any workshop if they are interested in pursuing this as a career, and I incorporate my research and reading on current rigs. Point being, I like to think I know better, so me taking the risks here is much better than someone who knows little-to-nothing about operating.

 

So I would hope that these flourishing knock-offs (and lord, how they are flourishing. Like rabbits.) get better, but only because without the proper training and know-how to begin with, they will foster bad habits, fail continuously, and very potentially start hurting people whose reach exceeds their grasp.