The ALIEN / Alien Revolution - All about...

[Stephen Murphy]

  He was trying to snake Jeff Hunt (a-cam/steadi on 1st unit) out of his job with the promise of free A/R.  That is sad. 

Ron B

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Ron, for God's sake, due tell the name of that person.

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I agree completely. Name and shame that prick. With the introduction of the AR to the steadicam package we all need to be very carefull about how we introduce it to Pm's and Producers. It should not now or ever be seen to be a "standard" steadicam accessory. I think it is especially encumbant on the group of operators who initally bought the system to set the right rates and extra kit rental and set the standard. Please Ron, name the guy and lets hope he gets the attention he deserves from the rest of us.

[Michael Stumpf]

I agree completely. Name and shame that prick. With the introduction of the AR to the steadicam package we all need to be very carefull about how we introduce it to Pm's and Producers. It should not now or ever be seen to be a "standard" steadicam accessory. I think it is especially encumbant on the group of operators who initally bought the system to set the right rates and extra kit rental and set the standard. Please Ron, name the guy and lets hope he gets the attention he deserves from the rest of us.

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Stephen, I fully heartedly agree.

 

Should the AR become the revolutionary next stage of steadicam, GREAT.

I'm all for it. Howard and Lynn will become multimillionaires and all will be happy.

 

BUT, think of it this way. When the Technocrane came out, Panavision didn't

go around to each set offering up this new revolutionary crane at the same

rate as all other cranes!!

And, THAT is the important thing here.

What this operator did to Jeff Hunt is not a very professional and ethical thing to do.

I would NEVER do such and thing and wouldn't be referring such a person to

"cover" me on any job either. But sadly there are those type of people out

there who'll try to "steal" your job away owning an AR or otherwise.

But what this operator did by offering up the AR at the same rate as normal Steadicam HURTS ALL of US!!!

Doing that will do TWO things

1. Drive down the rental rates of normal Steadicam

2. Plant a seed in producers minds that NOW they can get the AR for the rate

of normal steadicam!

 

That SHOULD NOT be and CAN NOT be made the precedence!

The AR and it's initial owners NEED to establish that IF a Producer/Director WANTS

the AR on a job, they need to pay a premium...say 50% MORE than the standard rate of normal Steadicam.

AND they need to STICK by that! It will set the rate for an AR rental from

that point on if every AR owner stands by that. And trust me, if the AR becomes common place, producers will

be working on driving down the rental rates of it soon enough!

 

Will got a premium for it on "Rent" and that's TERRIFIC. Not all budgets will

allow that much of a premium, but surely 50% more per day and/or per week

over and above the normal Steadicam rental rate should be the set minimum!

(Ie: if getting $3000 a week rental on normal steadicam...with an AR the weekly

rental becomes a minimum of $4,500)

And that's fair, considering it costs what $50-60K for the thing.

1. It weighs more therefore puts more stress on you and your back.

2. It will allow them to get shots they couldn't get before = production value

3. It will "save" them time when needing to convert from low mode to high mode

on any given production. Time savings=money savings to producers.

 

All the "pioneers" have to tell a producer is those three things to COMPLETELY justify

the minimum 50% extra rental cost.

 

So, please to the early owners of the AR...go get them show the thing off.

BUT do so with the DIRECT message that this is a SPECIALTY item ON TOP OF

the normal Steadicam rental and DEMAND the premium of 50%.

 

It will help secure current steadicam rates and ESTABLISH

AR rates in the future!

[Stephen Murphy]

Very well said Michael.

Id still like to hear the name of that op.

If he's a member of the SOA i think we should petition for him to be removed from that organisation, and if he's a member of the Steadicam guild id hope they would consider doing the same. Using this forum, and the guild mailing list we could alert other ops around the world so that everyone knows what this guy is doing.

[WillArnot]

Thanks Michael and Stephen for your very valid input. The unethical op should be ethically strung up by his cajones. Really, the nerve of some people astounds me.

 

So you know, the AR is renting for another $1,000.00 per day ON TOP of the Steadicam Rental. And the operator rate will bump up to somewhere between $175 to $200 per hour. Still TBD.

The kit is either on a daily as used or a 3 day week guarantee. NOT a daily that caps at 3 days.

They can't have their cake and eat it too!

 

Commercial Day rate $150 / hour

Feature Day rate $130 - $140 / hour

A / B op & Steadi combo rate for long format $90 - $100 / hour no matter what kind of operating you are doing each day.

I'd rather not do TV b/c generally the rates are f------ b---sh--. Those who do, all the power to you, it has def got me through slim times once in a while.

 

Regular Steadicam kit Rental $1000 / day no exceptions.

3 day week guarantee on long format - $3000 no exceptions.

 

Additional Preston system for A or B camera $750 - $850 / week. And no you can't just pull the one off the Steadicam.

 

Stick to it guys. We can all get this.

 

That bum handing out those cards needs a personal house call!! Ron does your Hummer do Living Room walls and windows??

 

Newbies beware. This will not apply to you for a very long time. This is for established operators. 7 - 10+ years as a camera operator on Union projects. And that's after you've done at least 5 years in the biz before that.

 

There are no short cuts in life. Steadicam is not a get rich quick scheme at all. Any and all the money you make goes right back into it.

 

Best to all,

 

Will

[Stephen Murphy]

Will,

 

Thanks for the support and thank you very much for your honesty and openness with the rates you're charging for the AR, I tip my hat to you sir.

[PaulEdwards]

I find it very heartening to hear the various reponses to the issue of rates. Having tried the AR, I think operating the AR is worth a good chunk extra; for the added rental on the kit and also for the extra skill required in operating. I would say that you?re definately working your body harder. This is not particularly with added weight (depending whether you?re flying with an LCD monitor) but with the way in which you need to keep the rig further from your body when rotating between high and low modes and generally getting your body into more awkward positions. As I suggested previously, try the post rotation (slowly) with your own rig and you?ll see what I mean.

 

I think Howard is well aware of the extra value and responsibility that the AR brings. It is in everybody?s interest to ensure that this extra kit is recognised as such ie. extra and also that the dumb ?now anybody can be a steadicam operator? comment (which I?ve heard) can be put in its place. All other things been equal, I am sure that a good reputation for the AR can only be established by experienced operators. As with ?normal? operating the great shots and fine operating come with skill and experience.

 

I realise that I?m hearing this third hand but I find the behaviour of the previously refered to CSI, B-Cam/steadicam op ?colleague? , pretty despicable. I really wonder how guys like that handle people day to day. Do they treat their wives, children, taxi drivers, shop assistants etc with the same contempt?? Are they ready to stab anyone in the back or do they just reserve it for work?

 

Paul

[WillArnot]

Paul, thank you for your clear and accurate assesments. I know everyone is grateful for your input. Now for the reality of a sync sound camera in there. 235 is great as Howard and Chris say, but I'm afraid the availability and practicality (mos camera) of the 235 just isn't a viable avenue yet. Fantastic yes if you are doing a music video or maybe a commercial. As you have pointed out, it is way more taxing on your body, and weight is going to be a critical issue here.

 

Right now, the AR cage weighs 9 lbs. The data communications box that talks to the cage up top is very light at about 6 ozs. On the bottom, the data box is about 24 ozs (don't have exact weight). I don't have a weight on the sensor pack. But I have calculated that one needs at least 5 lbs if not more like 8.5 lbs of battery weight. This is also helped by mounting the focus system down below as well. The point being that to take full advantage of the camera being low enough in low mode and high in Hi mode, the gimbal needs to be at least 13 inches from the center of the lens. This is achieved by either lengthening the post or adding bottom mass. To keep the rig to a reasonable length, bottom mass becomes the way to go. So far, my 35mm sync sound camera set up with 2 lens motors will involve 2 x Dionic 90 Li Ions, and 1 x Hytron 120 Pro Pac. Also with the Preston on bottom, this will attain a very desirable sled length and gimbal position. I will experiment with less mass on bottom with possibly 3 x Dionic 90's. This is heavy but still quite managable.

 

Matt. You have to understand the reality of the responsibility. There are so many guys trying to jump on the Steadicam band wagon that it has severly compromised both rates and very often willingness of Directors and Camermen to even hire Steadicam ops b/c they have often been exposed to some hack offering alot of good talk and low rates.

 

I can't tell you how many times I have seen a look of utter relief in the eyes of a Director or Cameraman that I work with for the first time. I am not trying to toot my own horn, I am talking about how pissed I get about fakers, and b/c I care so much about the integrity of our craft.

If one doesn't have a VERY established command over operating a regular Steadicam, operating an AR will be somewhat akin to (excuse the expression) a monkey f-----g a football.

 

Believe me, you will not do yourself or anyone else any favours in trying to cut any corners when it comes to the AR. For all you car enthusiasts the metaphor is something like a new driver who has only driven an automatic Chevy Chevette for a couple of years getting into a Nascar w/ a gajillian lbs of torque on the rear wheels... a crash is inevitable.

 

Patience for God's sake. Yes it is alot easier to say 7-10+ years when you have it, than to be at 2 or 3 years and hear that. As has been pointed out so many times before on this forum, you must crawl before you can walk, and walk before you run. Simple but very true.

 

Loaders on one big movie who want to first on their next gig. Film school DPs who dont know their ass from an Inky and think a Blonde is the make-up artist. Whatever happened to being an apprentice? The rat race mentality in this modern world we live in is killing you.

Go sit in the woods for a day and ask yourself if it is really that important to become an AR operator without any real foundation in Operating and Steadicam.

 

You can't be a ship's captain if you haven't ever swabbed the decks. It's just how life is. Take a deep breath and concentrate on being the best version of what you are now. Let the future take care of itself.

 

AR operating is not a dark art. None of us really know the truth yet. That is why you are not hearing the information you want. Other than that it is extremely challenging and you better know your way around a Steadicam like you were born with it on. And that is just for starters.

 

Will "Just the facts" Arnot

[Nicholas M. Chopp]

Matt "baby steps" Burton.

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Baby steps out of the office... baby steps into the hallway... baby steps into the elevator... AHHHH!!!!! *grin* Great film.

[Michael Stumpf]

Will....nice, very nice. I couldn't agree more with your advice and thoughts.

 

Matt, 3 years "dabbling" in both wouldn't necessarily be the way to go either.

When a "newbie" is 3 years into regular steadicam operating, usually they are

still learning and honing their skills. And most of their work in that first 3 years

will be low budget, and student films.

 

Like Will said, it takes longer than 3 years of driving a car, to expect to be a great driver, especially if all 3 of those years was spent tooling around a small town, with wide open roads. The AR would then be like being dropped off in the middle of Los Angeles or New York City.

 

Again, I agree with Will...in this "day and age" nobody has patience.

They "graduate" college and expect to be the CEO of a major corporation

the next week!

Learn the BUSINESS first...move up the ladder. It will not only give you the

PROPER prospective on the industry, but other crew members will SEE your

experience then, and respect you for it.

Even a PA can tell a hack steadicam operator, you has no idea what each and every

position on the crew does, let alone how to operate the Steadicam well.

 

In any case Will, thanks again for your input and some of the info on the final product of the AR. I remember the prototype being just like you said, quite a bit

heavier than a standard Steadicam, quite a bit longer, and the gimbal was several inches (6-8) below the bottom of the camera platform. And it was DEFINITELY more

taxing on the body. I'm anxious to hear more updates from you guys as things progress. And would still like to here complete specs from Howard about it.

[Nicholas M. Chopp]

Gentlemen, let's try to keep it professional. There's no need for personal insults on either side.

[Thomas English]

Matt: please don't needlessly quip, your ruining very interesting threads. Your getting your first rig soon and you may be doing your first paid job over the next year, in the meantime do not be rude to other members of the forum.

 

Will and Paul of the AR contigeant: I always understood in my head the main pricipal of steadicam to be that any movement implied on the camera would move the whole camera vertically through its horizontal planes, rather than tilting the camera. So a move of one inch would translate to a direct shift of the whole image of one inch... i.e. not making a difference to an object 10ft away.

 

When operating the AR, when you have the camera at right angles (90' ) any panning turns to tilting. Does this make it quite difficult to operate at this angle smoothly? I could imagine slow running shots to be fairly difficult not to jog the tilt ....... Is this one of the areas where a lot of practise to will be needed?

[Matt Burton]

Matt: please don't needlessly quip, your ruining very interesting threads. Your getting your first rig soon and you may be doing your first paid job over the next year, in the meantime do not be rude to other members of the forum.

 

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I have deleted all my posts as they were nothing to do with the thred anyhows. All parties can do the same to tidy up the thread. sorry

 

Matt

[mattmarek]

sorry to start a new thread,

but the other one was getting a little messy and clogged up.

 

for those with the AR or experience with it: will the AR get rid of the need for gyros? for noobs or even experienced op's, will the AR be used in just standard operating mode to correct horizon? is there any noticeable delay in correction?

 

aestheticaly speaking, what kind of image does the AR deliver? does the image feel organic like on a steadicam or is there a mechanical feel to the picture as it is a computer and machine that is making movements/corrections on it's own, without human control.

 

as a new tool, we in the steadicam world are all excited by the possibilities that this could bring to us in the future. for everyone else in film, it's just another tool...no excitement or endless posts on forums :D just another way to move the camera. i think that this needs to be dealt with properly in the early stages and operators giving away the AR with their kit to get 'a cam' on big shows, is not the way to do it. this type of behaviour will kill AR. tech support will also need to be at a high, and from what i hear, howard is up to par.

 

ok, just my thoughts and a couple of questions.

lets keep this thread clean please :)

cheers from istanbul

matt

[Mikko Wilson]

Matt, nice thread.

I'll chime in with a comple more questions.

 

First.. when do we get to see a picture?

 

Also, a little more of how it works/what it does?

So it's basically a auto-leveling dutch-head (Z-axis roll) system?

If you where to (assuming clearances) roll the camera round in a big circle around the gimble, it would always face level as it made a big arc? - So automatic horizon correction?

 

Can it be trimmed? or better yet, operated manually? (To do a roll during a move?) - SO someone with a Lense-control radio system could also alter the horizon of the shot?

[Thinking out loud here] - Could the operator (or assistant) also remotly pan and tilt too with some sort of upgrade?.

Maybe this is a bit off topic, but would it work to put a regular 3-axis remote head on a Steadi, combined with AR's monitor alignment? Seems like that could do some wild stuff!

 

- Mikko.

[RonBaldwin]

sorry guys that I started this sh*t-storm about the situation on CSI. I have told the story and named the op to several people in person, but I do not think an international forum is the place to name names/flame somebody in a local market for a possible momentary lapse in judgement...well, except Steve Byro. If this behaviour continues...all bets are off. It was in no way a slam to the A/R, but to this op's unethical attempts to get work. Like I said, it is sad.

 

Ron B