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cinetronic cineranger


william west

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-Smile- It seems it is much wiser to agree with everything you are saying.

 

The excuses provided reveal a lack of financing up front, a lack of software R&D and proof of concept during Prototype phase, and an appalling approach to dealing with customers and their significant investments.

 

It's about professionalism, not price point. I sell small very useful items. I stand behind them. You sell a very very expensive item, and have a very well-connected-to-one-another community pretty torqued off at you.

 

Ahhhh well. I wish you the very best of luck, and bow out of this unfortunate thread.

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Peter, There was a lot of planning up front, but when the total time and money comes in a 3 times what was originally quoted, what are you to do? Total development costs on the Gen2 have been over $350K. The preorder was done to finance the final overages, and we were told it would be finished faster than it was. Many companies in this situation would have just pulled the plug.

 

Brooks, you dont have any insights into the behind the scenes between Afton and Cinetronic. Both Afton and Jens have both sold their monitors, but if you look back at any post I have made, they always chime in with something negative. Even when non monitor products are announced, the response from them is negative. It just shows their bitterness, since they feel the need to constantly say something negative. At some point it just gets excessive. But if I speak up about it I am such a bad guy?

 

Even from the very first post I made, talking about building a better monitor, all there has been is negativity. One of the first comments was "oh, not another one". Go back and read all the comments from operators on here, and truly see how negative people are here. You claim to support each other, but look how quick you are to stab each other in the back as well. Just look at how nasty people get here when the hear an operator is working at a lower than normal rate, and see the witchhunt that ensues. Not very supportive and productive of a community...

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Chris,

 

You are correct. I don’t have any insight into your dealings with Afton. As I mentioned, I only know him through his posts through the years on the forum. I do however have a sneaking suspicion that his “bitterness” has something to do with his treatment at the hands of your company. No I don’t know both sides of the story, but I do have my own version of it having dealt with you and Mike for 6 months. In truth, I feel the same way as Afton (otherwise I wouldn’t have spent half of one of my days off writing lengthy rants), but haven’t been publicly vocal until now.

 

What I can tell you is that I’ve wanted to make the same proclamations as Afton and Jens many times, but felt it wasn’t my place. The supportive emails, texts, and PM’s I’ve received today regarding this thread tells me there are others out there with the same view who are standing on the sidelines. But none of that really matters.

 

At the crux of it, you put out a product that could have endeared you to the community as a whole. Great concept, poor execution. Maybe it is your fault, and maybe not, but you have dealt with it poorly. People want to be treated like adults. If there is a problem, tell them…be honest and straightforward…they’ll understand. But to be told one thing, and then find out something else is going on will only bring about animosity, which you are now experiencing.

 

As a community we are supportive, especially of one another. You note one potentially negative situation, and yes that does tend to get people fired up, but the other 95% of the time people here are civilized and take the high road. That is especially true after two people spoke up (myself being one) regarding one of the operators and frequent posters on this forum who was in the daily habit of bullying others – you may know him, he was your biggest early supporter. Since then, it has been a much friendlier place to discuss things such as equipment and things that affect the day to day operation of being a steadicam operator. Even the person in question has taken to posting quality posts that help the greater community. We take the time to help one another, and often speak up when a vendor isn’t doing the right thing or showing the kind of support we have come to expect – so as to protect the next guy from making the same mistake we made.

 

There are only three companies that have generated this kind of backlash (already mentioned a few posts above) – the old MK-V with Howard, Loon, whose owner has seemingly been ducking calls and not fixing/returning parts that are sent to him, and Cinetronic/Film-Stuff with you and Mike. People here support gear that works and alert one another to gear that doesn’t or whose company isn’t supportive after the initial sale. Guess what? That is all that is happening here. Nobody has a personal vendetta against you or your company. We gave you our support when we gave you our money. Support us or don’t…but be warned that if not, we will seek out the services of other companies for our hard earned money and not be shy about reflecting on our negative experiences with you. It’s a pretty easy process to figure it out or so I thought.

 

In closing, I am obviously not making sense to you as you continue to make excuses (some valid, but with a flawed way of dealing with them) and continue to blame others for the mishaps at your company. That’s okay. I’m only one guy, and my opinion doesn’t really matter except to me. Keep doing things as you have, or don’t, and make a change. Either way, I suggest you take a look at the things a well-run company does (and also the things they don’t do). The way you deal with your clients both here and via email doesn’t endear you to more of their business going forward…but that is just my opinion, which I’ve told you doesn’t much matter except to me. Good luck going forward.

 

Brooks Robinson

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Wow, Chris. First, I have done no business with your company in the past, so I am truly neutral in this stand. But you are a supplier of merchandise to the media industry. I must say that I am surprised of your tone towards your customers. I would think that you need them more than they need you. Am I wrong? When your customers have real world issues, my advice is to speak to them and ask what their problems and concerns are.

 

When you accuse our community of not being supportive, I need to counter that. Sure, this forum isn't ideal. But what social media is? Facebook? Twitter? Cinematography.com? The use of social media and internet is still very new compared to traditional communication. Many scientific reports have come to the same conclusion. People are still learning how to communicate better through the internet.

 

Sometimes people write the wrong things or end up being misunderstood. I myself have written some things that I should have checked once more before pressing post. But the tons of great support and writing outnumbers the negativity a hundred fold. Several times I have been stuck somewhere at the most ridicolous hour, and a problem has occurred. This forum has been wonderful in getting the right support and advice.

 

So yes, I do claim that this community is supportive.

 

PS! Your example of using under cutters is a really bad example. Say someone delivers the exact same product you do, and undercuts you by 40%. How are you going to make that into a sustainable career? I'd like a elaborate explanation how you will deal with that problem...

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Lars, We have treated our customers quite well. There are many that will attest to this. Some of them are a bit unrealistic in what they expect, which is the nature of the film business. My complaint is with the small number of people who no longer own our products, yet have to say something negative any chance they can. What if a producer hires you, doesnt like your work, and then on every job he does from there on he talks about how terrible you were. Would this not be a little excessive? I understand you cant please 100% of the people 100% of the time.

 

As for undercutting, thats what competition is all about. You also dont know the personal circumstances of the person. Maybe someone was undercutting because he had to, and would lose his house otherwise. Yet everyone is so quick to judge and hang someone out to dry, which isnt very supportive.

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I don't know a lot about this exact story, but I can attest to Chris's manufacturing issues.

As an equipment manufacturer in a similar arena to this, it is very easy for your entire best-made plan to just get wiped out in one swoop. I have been lucky, but there have been several times where there were distinct possibilities of huge problems that could have landed me in trouble like this, but I escaped. Developing something like this is not easy. Im not saying what has happened should be forgiven, but this is a difficult and very gutsy project to undertake, and these sorts of projects are delicate and can be wrecked with one minor thing. I feel sorry for Chris really. I can't speak for how customers were treated, but I do sympathise with his situation.

 

Pete.

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