using LLC on union show, do i get hours?

[brett.mayfield]

hey yall

i have been getting my ducks more in a row and have an LLC and all required insurance etc.

on music videos, commercials, etc, its easy enough to bill through my LLC.

 

however, when filling out a time card for a union show (paid through indiepay) should i continue to go in as myself or as my LLC? and then should i direct deposit into my business or personal account? ideally i would bill both equipment (see below) and labor as my LLC, and put both checks into my business account so that all of my income can start going to one place and taxes will be more of a breeze. however i am unsure if i will be credited my union hours if i bill labor as my LLC. thoughts?

 

also, for my gear i can either do loan out as LLC or invoice for the gear (also as LLC). is there a benefit for one over the other?

 

thanks for your help

 

brett.

[Janice Arthur]

Brett

 

I bill equipment through company and hours through personal SS#.

 

I can have withholding done through personal stuff and no withholding on equipment.

 

You can also use social security withholding which is good at end of year too.

 

Hours are accumulated through personal SS# too.

 

More later.

 

Janice

[Kris Torch Wilson]

Brett,

 

It is my understanding that you will not get your Union hours. Unless, your corporation becomes a signatory and makes the contribution to Motion Picture. The funds have to come from somewhere! There is also the business of workers comp insurance.

Like Janice I have billed all equipment via the company and gone on Production's payroll for my labor. If it's a non union job that will accept an invoice for labor, I will go that route. My accountant has had no problems dealing with this. One W2 or twenty, it's just math.

 

Torch

[brett.mayfield]

Thanks Janice, thanks Torch. Your comments corroborate my understanding and practices thus far as well. ill continue to timecard my labor, get the hours, and stay on payroll. my gear will go through my LLC and be invoiced to the production (W9). Using a loan-out would require a whole nother round of paperwork in order to achieve the same end. i dont quite understand the loan out system...

it seems to be that if the payroll is going to pay for gear through a loan out, then the loan out has to fill out all the same paper work as an operator. is this because the gear is seen as a "working entity" of sorts? the PM gave me the option of just sending her a quote with all my gear at the agreed-upon rate and then invoicing the production at the end of each week. seems fine to me, i can dig it. i just dont understand the technical differences.

 

brett.

[Victor Lazaro]

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who's lost with inc, SSN and other paper stuffs. Thanks!

[William Demeritt]

I'm working on a show at Warner Bros right now, and was told that WB doesn't allow for rate to run through Loanout ever, so I've been doing similar to what everyone here is suggesting: rate through timecard, rentals through the corporation.

 

However, I did email Barbara Jerome regarding IATSE's policy regarding the use of loanouts for rate as well as rental, just trying to understand why WB would have the police they do. The accounting dept of my show indicated it was a union policy not to allow loanout, but when I emailed Barbara, I got this response:

 

 

Hi William,

 

It is not a union rule. It is a WB policy. We have no issue with you being compensated through your loanout as long as you submit a time card and get your benefits via WB.

 

Best,

 

Barbara Jerome

 

Perhaps I am extrapolating too much from that, and I've done a few promos and music videos that were IA through my corporation (one was entirely payroll, the other was payroll for rate and invoiced for rental), so I need to find out if everything worked as I imagined. However, I figured that indicating I was using the loanout for the hours worked, and on the time card I had to give my social security number AND the Federal tax number, I figured that the social was used to report benefits paid to the union on my behalf and the Federal Tax number was for reporting the income.

 

I need to call around tomorrow to verify that the hours from those jobs were reported on my benefits, but that's how I figured it worked. SSN for the benefits to be paid, and the Federal Tax number for all income paid to my corp.

 

In my research regarding Workman's Comp (at least in California), most workman's comp (and workman's comp insurance) passes through the loanout to the individual working on the production. So, if I am working for a production, I am covered by their workman's comp policies as a pass through to me, individually, not the loanout corp. SOME workman's comp policies specifically do NOT pass through (perhaps they're cheaper? or have been used for fraud before?). I've worked for one company that specifically cited their workman's comp as a reason I couldn't use my corp.

 

Anyway, considering I'm not an accountant and still getting my feet wet with the use of my corporation, I'm still learning, so don't bet the farm on my advice. However, I took Barbara's response to mean the unions have no problems with us using loanouts for the rate, so long as the benefits contributions are still made in our name (hence why your social security number should be on the timecards even when using the loanout). I've crossed out the W4 exemptions sheet on a few union gigs, ran it all through my corp and nobody seemed to have any issue. Of course, I'll be irked if my benefit hours aren't there... will report back when I know more.

[brett.mayfield]

These are good points. I have an email out to Darla in Atlanta to find out the same. My time cards also include a UNION line to record our Local.

[Benjamin Verhulst]

I'm in year five of my SCorp and have been doing Loan Outs whenever I've been allowed - my hours always show up with MPIHP. There are legitimate reasons not to run your wages through a Loan Out, however -

Article 81, Part D of the Basic Contract makes the producers contribute to MPIHP even if you're paid through your Loan Out. In fact, it expressly prohibits your loan out from making contributions on your behalf. But don't take my word for it, always ask your Business Rep!

[Richard W. Davis]

One more vote for Loanout for gear and W2 for labor... Just started a new show for TBS (Paramount) and that was way they wanted to do it as well.

 

Rich Davis

LA

[Sam Naiman]

Just wanted to say thanks for this thread guys. Any insight on bettering the business side is always wonderful.

[William Demeritt]

Here's the Cliff's Notes I've come up with so far:

 

• Longer show, W2 for hours and loanout for gear
• Shorter show/gig, oanout for both hours and gear.
• The union has no objection to doing loanout, so long as the hours are reported to IA.
• Time cards have a loanout and personal social security number.
• NEW: If you're the owner/operator of your corporation, you can file an exemption with the state that you don't need to carry Workman's Comp insurance.
• If a show says they can't do loanout, it's not because of the union. Most likely, their workman's comp requires each employee and their hours be reported so the production company can pay the workman's comp insurance premium based on the number of workers and the worker's hours.
• I worked a show that tried to counter with the workman's comp insurance issue, I told them the corp was exempt because it's just me, and they let me do the loanout. Not union, but still worked.
• Some studios don't allow for loanouts except for department heads, which makes sense because a lighting director might have his guys on a show, so they have workman's comp insurance through his corp. Production still pays hours to IA through payroll and pays the employee directly while reporting earnings through the corp.

The item about the workman's comp insurance exemption was told to me by an insurance vendor who normally does provide workman's comp insurance. Basically, if the loanout is simply you (so you have no employees), you file this form:

 

http://www.cslb.ca.gov/Resources/FormsAndApplications/ExemptionFromWorkersCompensation.pdf

 

Hopefully that helps us out!