Front vs. Back mounted

[RobVanGelder]

So this issue is still alive with little solutions except for using FM again.

 

Chris, the tingling is getting less now, I hope it will disappear quickly.

It is interesting to see when you google Tingling skin, you find a lot of web pages with this symptom, and in many cases they relate to underlying diseases.

There is never a clear treatment but always referral to a proper physician.

 

In this case I know really well where i got this from, so i am not worried about anything else than a pinched nerve.

 

It is a bit strange, in all my live I have never - seriously - felt so fit and firm, going to the fitness 2-3 times a week, since I married my young Thai wive, 2 years ago.... a man has be fit :rolleyes:

 

But I suspect that all that training, together with the leaner Asian/Thai food for 6+ years now, has made me more toned, without an additional fat layer/cushion and that exposes my nerves closer to the skin surface.

 

It means that I have to talk to Walter about additional padding and foam, as well as upgrade to the double sided ratched frontplate on the vest.

 

Luckily I still have my old IIIa vest, but I don't feel so comfortable in that, never have, by the way. And this vest gives me additional stress in the hip-joints.

 

Oh well, up to the fitness again, WITH my lovely wife! :lol:

 

Best,

Rob

[chris fawcett]

Chris, the tingling is getting less now, I hope it will disappear quickly.

Hi Rob,

 

I don't want to sound too alarmist, but nerve damage progresses from temporary to permanent by degrees. It's generally a function of duration and extent of compression. Please be careful. It's a warning sign you really need to heed.

 

Best wishes,

 

Chris

[BJMcDonnell SOC]

Hey Charles,

 

 

To answer your question about the socket flip, yes it can be a pain. I have a PRO arm so I have to use the 2 socket tools to flip it. It isn't the aircraft pin as you know. Usually when I watch a rehearsal I will evaluate which vest I will be using. I keep the tools close by. It takes me maybe 2 minutes to flip the socket block and oh yes there have been times where that short take turns into a monster and I am in my FM vest. For the most part I have been working out the switch quite well. I love having a FM vest for running and tight doorways. I really have to say for me this works great. It might be a hassle to other ops, but to each his own. I feel like it keeps my back in check switching vests through the day. I asked Jack at GPI about adding a aircraft pin to the socket block and he told me that was boo cocky!!!

 

And I do agree with Chris Fawcett about checking on that Rob. I went to the doc when my leg was tingling and they taught me good physical therapy workouts to strengthen my back. It is obviously a nerve issue and if you don't take care of it it will get worse and painful.

[Iain Baird]

I have the Klassen GB Dual Mount Vest. When I purchased it Walter gave me an aircraft pin for my PRO arm. It works perfectly and makes turning the block around a ten second procedure.

 

IAIN

[Lawrence Karman]

as for the numbing, i just message the shit out of it until it finally goes away

 

I believe he was talking about his LEG, Rob. :rolleyes:

 

I find the numbness is an issue when the vest is buckled too tight. Try and keep it looser. Walter will suggest more padding on the front "door". Not sure if this really helps and it makes getting the straps in the buckle a bit harder. Perhaps a strict Thai food diet and "workout" would improve that, as in Rob's case.

 

I had a PRO vest before this one for years and I remember having to use an ice pack after long days on the area over my left front hip bone to mitigate the pain and swelling it caused. Maybe I did not have enough personal padding (adipose tissue) in that area. Sure do miss the vest's light weight, though. Like Charles said, those muscles are long gone and switching back and forth doesn't sound too practical.

[Alec Jarnagin SOC]

Front mount versus back mount? The saga continues?

 

I bought a WK back mount five years ago when my old Model 1 vest gave out (the upper spar cracked which I was able to rebuild with a Master Series spar, but I didn't care for the webbing connection at the shoulder as it causes the vest to move around too much). I opted for the back mounted harness instead of the PRO (the closest thing out there to a Model 1 vest, ironically) more or less because of testimonies from fellow operators. I had never had any back problems, etc. I just thought it was time to beat up some different muscles. I tried several harnesses in my area, but they were all ill-fitting so I traveled to Toronto to visit Walter's shop. He measured me while going over the various options and played great host to boot. A month later, a brilliantly crafted harness arrived in the mail - kudos to Walter and his entire staff. Adjusting to the harness took some time for me as it changes the arm angle, but I pushed forward. I found the harness did seem to make some of the "weight" go away, but I began to experience sore hips. Calls to Walter (and eventually a shop visit when I was shooting in Rochester, NY) produced a series of pads that I could position to alleviate the stress. And forward I went for the next three plus years using this harness almost exclusively. I did experience the leg tingle thing on a few occasions but I found that I just needed to loosen the harness a tad bit while making sure it wasn't so loose that it slipped down my body. Overall things worked well until I tore an abdominal muscle. For the record, I don't think this had anything to do with the harness but I really don't know how I did it and probably never will. I was eventually forced into surgery to fix the problem. After a months rest, I started to don the rig again and frankly found it painful. I resurrected my rebuilt Model 1 vest and began playing with it as well, but mostly used the WK harness. After more than a year of enduring on again/off again pain (the harness sits on the scars), I used a friend's PRO vest. I couldn't believe I was in a front mounted vest; the support was very uniform around my waist and the vest was extremely light. One issue I have with the back mounted harness is when it is cold out, the pads take awhile to settle so I find myself wearing the harness (without the sled) for WAY longer than I should. Over the course of a day, this is a lot of weight and I worry about the effect this has on the circulation (if I released the pressure, I'd find I'd want to tighten the ratchets mid shot as the pads condensed). Walter has pads made from different materials for various temperatures but unfortunately, I don't seem to like the non-temperature sensitive pads as much.

 

It has now been over six months with both vests in my inventory, but I find that I have stopped using the back mounted one. The PRO vest is extremely comfortable and very rigid - like no other front mounted vest I've seen (other than maybe the Ultra 2). I love the weight and the feel. Most of all, I feel at home again. I simply prefer the arm angle of a front mounted vest. I should add that I have not flown anything stupid heavy since switching back. I see Arricam LTs more than anything else, but my endurance has been surprisingly good since converting back. My abdomen muscles are MUCH happier too. As for "those" muscles????? Yeah, I feel them a bit more than in the back mount but much less than I thought. Like BJ, I've considered using the back mount for low mode, but I just haven't bothered.

 

Once again, to each their own. The vest is perhaps the most personal thing we use in this regard. Rob, I'm sure Walter can help you with a resize of the harness. I second what Chris said about nerve damage though. Chris is the man when it comes to posture. I owe him a great debt for pointing out bad habits I had developed from trying to work around the pain after my surgery. There are no short cuts.

 

Also, in my opinion, the 3a vest is the most uncomfortable vest ever made (talking about Steadicam brand here). I just hate the way the back is, but others swear by it. Anyway, Rob, if you do find yourself playing with front mounted vests more, look at the PRO and the Ultra 2. Sorry I missed you in Thailand, but we just ran out of time! Hopefully next time.

[JobScholtze]

God, i am so happy to read this all. i too have the wk collecting dust. I had 3 vests here. The new Ultra vest, the Old Master vest ( bought from Afton many moons ago ) and a WK. I used the wk for the AR. I also tryd and used it for regular steadicam jobs but i still prefer my old master. I sold the U2 vest as i could not be happy in it. The old mastervest fits like a glove. I am trying to sell my wk as its still new, but thats not easy. As soon as i sell it, i am gonna try the pro vest.

[Rob Vuona SOC]

God, i am so happy to read this all. i too have the wk collecting dust. I had 3 vests here. The new Ultra vest, the Old Master vest ( bought from Afton many moons ago ) and a WK. I used the wk for the AR. I also tryd and used it for regular steadicam jobs but i still prefer my old master. I sold the U2 vest as i could not be happy in it. The old mastervest fits like a glove. I am trying to sell my wk as its still new, but thats not easy. As soon as i sell it, i am gonna try the pro vest.

 

 

Job,

Man your in for a treat with the Pro Vest, a little stiff at first but Damm nice and wicked light

[RobVanGelder]

Just had a talk with my dad, who is a retired physician, and he confirmed that the cause is very likely the extended pressure on the thighs.

One thing to check (for everyone experiencing this kind of symptom) is if there is loss of power/control in the legs, toes etc.

That would mean an extended damage. Luckily I do not have that.

He told me that these symptoms can be introduced by continued over-hollowing of the spine, under loads like backpacks or... Steadicam.

 

There is also no cure for it, in this case. The body will and can repair certain damage, only time will tell. It can take weeks or months......

 

He experienced himself similar symptoms, as he just had a hernia operation after a shifted disk. The long waiting for the operation caused similar tingle and numbness in his lower legs. Part of those symptoms has disappeared after some weeks, one leg is normal again.

 

I am hopeful!

Thanks for all concerns and tips.

 

Rob

[Lukas Franz]

Guys, generally we should never forget what we're asking from our body everyday. We're hard working men/women. The deference to our own body and health should be an importance at daily work. Whatever harness your using, the body is still your most important tool and the most fragile one.

 

Take care. Fly save.

 

Lukas

[Tammy Jones]

I just received my WK BM vest on Friday. I have only had these two days with it, and other operators tell me not to worry that it takes a month or two to get used to. I am curious to hear from other female operators about the fitting and their experpiences with it. If any of you gals out there could email me or post your comments here, i would love to hear from you.

cheers,

Tammy

[Jaron Berman]

I can't walk with my hips straight if my life depended on it. That's (in my mind) the biggest difference - the way your hips and torso move. I walk with my torso upright, though I've found my hips don't necessarily follow. For me, the Klassen vest was difficult because it's dependent on the angle of the hips. When using it, my torso was still upright, but I could feel the rig diving side to side as I walked - the attitude of the socket block shifting with my hips. Obviously it takes practice to adjust, but even just walking in front of a mirror, the way my body naturally moves is far more conducive to a front-mount vest - hips wherever, torso very upright. In the great FM vs. BM vest debate, I think it's important to weigh all the factors, INCLUDING the way we walk normally without 80-100 additional lbs and also how we breathe. I tend to breathe with my abdomen, so again - the front mount works perfectly. Some people breathe with their chests, making the FM vest either way too loose and breathable or suffocatingly tight. To those people, the Klassen is a revelation and usually the first thing they say is "I love the Klassen because I can breathe!" For me, it's front mount all the way. For others maybe not. It's great that we have so many options though!

 

But so far even completely brand new and not broken in, I am VERY very very happy with the PRO vest! I liked the Ultra 2, but for my size, the custom PRO already feels like a great improvement in comfort and finesse.

[Jeff Cook]

Jaron, you can rest assured that your Ultra 2 vest has found a happy home.

 

A vest is defiantly a personal preference and having multiple adjustment points help a lot when "breaking in" a new vest. Back mounted vest don't have that many adjustable parts, it should be fitted for you from the start. If it fits, great, if not, I’m not sure you will ever be happy.

[Jaron Berman]

Good to hear it Jeff!

[Josip Pavelic]

Hi everybobdy,

 

I must confess that I have never tried back mounted vest (I'm crying to do try),have tryed 2 of more traditional front mounted (by the way which is the approx ratio front/back in terms of quantity). The first one was the vest of steadicam II,and the one I'm using now is V-25 vest (however not mine equipment, what the producers supply).

What I wanted to say is that it seems to me that front mounted vests are somehow limiting full diaphraghm breathing what is very important (correct air exchange is fuel for operators), and I have natural tendency to breathe like that. Obviously that is not an issue with back mounting vests. Are there front mounting vests which aren't so limited in this area? The one I liked more out of those 2 I tried is steadicam 2 vest (even it was much older then V-25 vest).

 

Take care,

 

Josip Pavelic