Possible New Anton/Bauer High-Current Li Ion Battery?

[WillArnot]

First Genesis picture coming up. Please to speed up!

[Lars Erik]

Brant,

 

any new info on this yet? Have you heard any dates for when they plan to release these batteries?

 

 

LE

[Edgar Colon]

"...this potential new item would be something just for the Steadicam community,

not a general sales item."

 

 

Very interesting, count me in too

 

Edgar

[WillArnot]

A/B "told" me April, May....

 

I'm currently carrying 8+lbs for the Genesis. 2x Dionic 90's and 1x Hytron 140.

 

Contrary to my rental house tests, i'm getting a total of just over 1 hour total run time w/ TB-6 up and of course the camera all the time, no stand by.

 

I'm at 85% on all 4 black springs on my PRO arm as I am flying the deck on and no cable most of the time. We generally rehearse w/ the cable for lighting.

 

This is absolutely brutal and just as bad if not worse than a GII conversion kit.

 

Panavision needs to have their feet kept to the fire on this. The Flash drives are an absolute necessity. Anyone doing a Genesis job needs to speak up, it's totally unacceptable operating procedure. The Whale tail battery bracket is great but the cable thing is a nightmare. Don't care how good your jumper is, when you are talking dual link 4:4:4 the operating is absolutely compromised. We must all let them know this.

 

We should get a higher rate for Genesis shows. Panavision gets double the rental for a Genesis package and there is little to no discount. We should be thinking along the same lines. I put almost $6000 into my sleds to do this Genesis show, and when the new batteries come out I will be spending yet again.

 

Will

[Eric Fletcher S.O.C.]

I'm currently carrying 8+lbs for the Genesis. 2x Dionic 90's and 1x Hytron 140.

 

Contrary to my rental house tests, i'm getting a total of just over 1 hour total run time w/ TB-6 up and of course the camera all the time, no stand by.

 

I'm at 85% on all 4 black springs on my PRO arm as I am flying the deck on and no cable most of the time. We generally rehearse w/ the cable for lighting.

 

This is absolutely brutal and just as bad if not worse than a GII conversion kit.

 

Panavision needs to have their feet kept to the fire on this. The Flash drives are an absolute necessity. Anyone doing a Genesis job needs to speak up, it's totally unacceptable operating procedure. The Whale tail battery bracket is great but the cable thing is a nightmare. Don't care how good your jumper is, when you are talking dual link 4:4:4 the operating is absolutely compromised. We must all let them know this.

 

We should get a higher rate for Genesis shows. Panavision gets double the rental for a Genesis package and there is little to no discount. We should be thinking along the same lines. I put almost $6000 into my sleds to do this Genesis show, and when the new batteries come out I will be spending yet again.

 

Will

 

I hear ya. This beast is living up to it's nick-name "The Genocide" I'm in the same boat on my pilot. 10 6 miniute takes were not fun.

 

I was told the flash drive will be out "Around Cinegear" and that they are using off the shelf technology (A huge array of Compact Flash cards!) and will use "Very Little" Power.

 

I was also told that they will be sending out the new AB Batts with the beast as soon as the batts are available.

 

Panavision also is not sending the "whaletail" out any more. Instead they are sending out a single battery mount that mounts on the back if camera or active converter box.

[Mark Karavite]

"Panavision also is not sending the "whaletail" out any more. Instead they are sending out a single battery mount that mounts on the back if camera or active converter box."

 

I just finished prepping Genesis for a pilot. At first, I thought the gear was coming out of Woodland Hills, and they confirmed what Eric said, they will no longer send out the "whale tail" dual Dionic 90 mount. Then our gear came out of Hollywood, and they happily built me a whale tail by mounting a dual AB bracket to the B Camera's low mode bracket. Go figure!

 

Apparently, Panavision doesn't like the whale tail, because you are not supposed to hot swap batteries. The camera needs to shut down prior to changing either battery on the whale tail. I think we are smart enough to understand the proper battery swapping method. It's just a matter of educating the crews on the proper shut down procedure when changing batteries.

 

In a split mode, the Genesis can be powered from the whale tail, or via a PRO Y cable. Note, always order all Genesis cables with a L connector on the camera side (especially if you operate off the left side). Also, they have 2 versions of the BNC box. The old version only outputs 4:2:2 & 4:4:4. The newer BNC box also outputs NTSC / PAL (no need for an additional downconverter on board). Since the BNC box mounts into the mag port, only the newer BNC box allows you to sandwich the BNC box between the body, and the lo mode bracket. If you end up with an older BNC box, and want to use the whale tail (or 1 piece for that matter), you won't have a place to mount a lo mode bracket. Always insist on the newer BNC box.

 

For now, I'm going to insist on a split version, and deal with the cables. This show is mostly 4:2:2, so I only have to deal with 1 cable. Besides the hugeness of it all, I couldn't get any decent run times off the batteries Panavision provided me in a 1 piece mode.

 

Back to the original subject, we should all encourage Anton Bauer to move ahead with new battery technology to help with Genesis, 435, etc... I wonder if they'll take back all the Dionic 90's I just bought? :(

 

Mark Karavite

A Camera / Steadicam Operator

mkaravite@comcast.net

[WillArnot]

A note on selecting batteries from rental houses.

 

Have them bring you a whole mess of them. Put them on a charger - select that battery then hold the display button down for that battery. It will show you the # of cycles that battery has on it.

 

In Genesis world, you are pretty screwed if the battery has more than 50-60 cycles on it.

 

Insist on these conditions. Tell them why the batteries must be low cycles.... if not, they won't run the camera more than 5 minutes.

 

If they don't have enough THEY must buy new ones.

 

They created this bloody monster - THEY are responsible for powering it. They get double the rental on a Genesis package than a Platinum, but do we the Steadicam operators get extra rental for humping that mother around and dealing w/ all the BS??

 

We should. They get more, we get more. Should be that simple. Start educating the UPM's of the nature of this beast. Let everyone on set know what a pig it is and if you fly it with the deck on have the UPM, DP, Director try and pick the thing up from the stand. They will be utterly shocked... as I am every time.

 

W.

 

Oh, and forget about low mode. Just invert the rig and flip the image. No problems with that whatsoever. And much safer than hanging that camera from the lo mode bracket. You have to flip the camera image through the on board menu.

[nealnorton]

Hi Will:

 

Are you talking about Lithium Ion batteries? Dionics? I haven't had the opportunity to try out the Genisis camera but I have found my dionics 90's to be very stable. I am waiting for all 7 to crash at one time!

 

And just imagine how much it would cost you in Gym fees to duplicate the workout Panavision is providing you! Maybe we should pay them? After this Picture, an XL will feel like a toy!

 

Regards,

 

Neal

[Brad Hruboska]

Neal, don't say that , I have had one dionic 90 die on me this winter, and they are all the same vintage !

 

RE: the power issue, yeah pro Y cable is a great idea for the dionic 90's BUT the dionics must be perfectly matched as a pair in order to work or the weaker one will detect the current form the stronger one and your battery will shut down. I guess you have to buy batteries and make a red , blue, yellow, orange set an make sure they charge togther. I am much more a fan of the 2000 diagnostic charger than the Titan, as It seems to have promoted long battery life for my dionics. It was explained to me by my Toronto AB rep that the chemistry of the dionics is self destructive, more so in the discharged state. So my battts live in my shop on the charger all the time. If they are basically charged when i pull them form the case they go on the totan for a top up. If thye have any significant discharge form the days job, they go on the 200 for a slower more monitored charge up, and i check the analyis on the readout. I'm still getting good solid performance from some packs that are 3 years old now.

The one that died outright strarted really falling off in performcnac in the fall , so you will know when its on its way to battery heaven.

 

I agree and have insisted on production buying cells for the rig as part of the genesis curse, its like a can of film per cell, its now a consumable item, cuz the camera is so hard on batteries.

OR get panavision to provide cells appropriate to the job, and a batery belt is not appropriate to fine control steadicam work.

I believe Dave Crone used the fibre optic option for sending signal to the deck on Scary movie 4, and that saved a lot of weight as well....

 

 

Cheers, see some of you at NAB, my first time, very excited....!

Brad H. B)

[Charles Papert]

I've beat my Dionics up pretty good...I don't leave them on the charger, I don't mount them in numerical order, they've been through two shows/4 months of full time Genesis use and are about 1.5 years old, and the only issue I've seen to date is occasional strangeness with the display on the side on one or two. I do ask the assistants to try to match the two batts that are being tied for 24v (or send separately for 12v to the Genesis) as much as possible, but I assume that this is probably hit or miss..! So I would say that the legend that they are only good for a year of operation whether they are used or not would not be true for me.

 

As far as Scary Movie was concerned, I worked with the DP of that show (Tom Ackerman) on his subsequent Genesis show and he told me that Dave Crone operated the whole show in one-piece mode. I don't even think that there was a fiber solution available at that time (we got the Panavision prototype in briefly on our movie but never used it for Steadi).

[Brant S. Fagan SOC]

Gents--

 

I just spoke with my source at A/B and have the following news.

 

Due to TSA shipping rules regarding Class 9 HAZMAT items, these new Hi Current batteries will most likely be in the 75 Watt-Hour range to allow for trouble free passage and shipping.

 

Size would be comparable to a Dionic 90 case and probably weigh about 1.5 pounds.

 

Now just doing my own math, I would like to have pairs A/B Gold Mount-plated together for camera power and one rear battery for 12 accessories power, most likely a Hytron 140. This would allow my BFX II sled to remain in dynamic balance even with the new power-pair batteries.

 

Completion and shipping dates? Still TBD but looking like summer to me but that is a guess.

 

Even in that power range, I would certainly be a happy user of this product!

 

Best,

 

Brant S. Fagan, SOC

Steadicam/Camera Operator

[Daniel Abboud]

Hey Steadi-cats!

 

Do any of you have any experience with SWIT Batteries? They're Lithium Ion and made with both A/B and V-Lock mounts. Their most powerful one (model 8160a/s) is rated at 190Wh. The 8170 a/s is designed to seperate into two pieces so you can fly with them. I've tested these batteries with an ARRI 435 at 150fps. It Got the camera up to speed in just under 7 seconds and barely broke a sweat. If u like ur batts a little lighter, these are about half the weight of A/B Hytron 140's

 

If ur interested, here's a couple of sites: http://broadcasting-supplies.com/ (pls tell 'em Daniel Abboud sent ya :rolleyes: ) or http://www.swit-battery.com/swit2006/english/index.asp

 

Happy Flying!

 

-Daniel Abboud.

[Eric Fletcher S.O.C.]

Their most powerful one (model 8160a/s) is rated at 190Wh. The 8170 a/s is designed to seperate into two pieces so you can fly with them. I've tested these batteries with an ARRI 435 at 150fps. It Got the camera up to speed in just under 7 seconds and barely broke a sweat. If u like ur batts a little lighter, these are about half the weight of A/B Hytron 140's

 

 

SEVEN Seconds??? Wow, that's slow and would indicate a battery that can be abused but not necessarily high current

[pauldudeck]

Gentlemen,

 

We have been looking at making a high power li ion battery, just like our Dionic 160. The Dionic 160 battery is the ONLY li ion battery that is manufactured/designed to handle high current draws. The cell itself is designed to handle high current loads as it is a military spec'd cell. Most li ion batteries can only handle loads up to 6-7amps. Any other li ion battery that can handle higher current loads is more than likely not backed by the cell manufacturer, and the manufacturer of the battery has just changed their protection circuit to a higher current level. This is not safe at all! There is a reason why the cell manufacturer only recommends a certain amount of current being pulled from the battery. Remember, li ion is the only rechargeable battery that has a flammable electrolyte.

 

We were investigating using the same cells that we use in our Dionic 160 for our newer battery. However, we found that the individual cells contained too much lithium in them and even if we manufactured a high current draw 95wh battery, it would still need to be traveled/shipped as Class 9 Hazardous.

 

Also, please note that any reputable cell manfacturer (like Sanyo) does not recommend putting more than 3 sets of cells in parallel when using li ion batteries. Again, there is a reason why the CELL MANUFACTURER does this; Monitoring more than 3 sets of cells in parallet gets difficult and the protection circuits may not work properly. ALL batteries that are over 100wh that we have investigated, use the same small cells and put up to 6-7 sets in parallet. this means that your battery has 24-28 cells in it. Another problems associated with having so many cells in your pack is that if ONE, yes, only one, cell goes bad, the whole pack is unusable.

 

There are very few companies out there that are actually manufacturing their own batteries. To our knowledge, there are only two others besides Anton/Bauer. Most/All of the other companies are just purchasing batteries from a Chinese company and re-labeling them. They are chinese manufactured and of chinese cell quality. Some may be "assembled" in other parts of the world, but use inferior cells. Ask any of these companies to tell you exactly what is inside of the battery or exactly how the protection circuits work and they will give you the runaround. Reason is because they don't know themselves. They are relying on people overseas to design, manufacture and assemble their products for them. Where is the quality control?

 

ALL Anton/Bauer batteries are designed, tested, manufactured and assembled in Shelton, CT. We can tell you exactly how our batteries work, what is inside of them and control the quality ourselves.

 

Lastly, ALL li ion batteries need to be tested to UN specs and get UN approval for travel. Even if a battery is under the 8g of aggregate lithium content, the battery must be UN approved before you can travel with or ship it. Ask the other battery manufacturers if their batteries are UN approved and have them supply you with paperwork indicating so. YOU, as the owner of the batteries, are responsible for the battery. Once the other company sells the battery, they wipe their hands clean. If a company tells you that they don't need to have UN testing and approval to travel with their li ion battery, then the company has not done their homework.

 

I hope this helps you in getting a better understanding of li ion batteries. We are continuously working on improving all cell technologies and are continuously testing all new battery types. We work with all reputable organizations that involve battery technologies and their safety.

 

Paul

[Ron L Rathbone]

Gentlemen,

 

We have been looking at making a high power li ion battery, just like our Dionic 160. The Dionic 160 battery is the ONLY li ion battery that is manufactured/designed to handle high current draws. The cell itself is designed to handle high current loads as it is a military spec'd cell. Most li ion batteries can only handle loads up to 6-7amps. Any other li ion battery that can handle higher current loads is more than likely not backed by the cell manufacturer, and the manufacturer of the battery has just changed their protection circuit to a higher current level. This is not safe at all! There is a reason why the cell manufacturer only recommends a certain amount of current being pulled from the battery. Remember, li ion is the only rechargeable battery that has a flammable electrolyte.

 

We were investigating using the same cells that we use in our Dionic 160 for our newer battery. However, we found that the individual cells contained too much lithium in them and even if we manufactured a high current draw 95wh battery, it would still need to be traveled/shipped as Class 9 Hazardous.

 

Also, please note that any reputable cell manfacturer (like Sanyo) does not recommend putting more than 3 sets of cells in parallel when using li ion batteries. Again, there is a reason why the CELL MANUFACTURER does this; Monitoring more than 3 sets of cells in parallet gets difficult and the protection circuits may not work properly. ALL batteries that are over 100wh that we have investigated, use the same small cells and put up to 6-7 sets in parallet. this means that your battery has 24-28 cells in it. Another problems associated with having so many cells in your pack is that if ONE, yes, only one, cell goes bad, the whole pack is unusable.

 

There are very few companies out there that are actually manufacturing their own batteries. To our knowledge, there are only two others besides Anton/Bauer. Most/All of the other companies are just purchasing batteries from a Chinese company and re-labeling them. They are chinese manufactured and of chinese cell quality. Some may be "assembled" in other parts of the world, but use inferior cells. Ask any of these companies to tell you exactly what is inside of the battery or exactly how the protection circuits work and they will give you the runaround. Reason is because they don't know themselves. They are relying on people overseas to design, manufacture and assemble their products for them. Where is the quality control?

 

ALL Anton/Bauer batteries are designed, tested, manufactured and assembled in Shelton, CT. We can tell you exactly how our batteries work, what is inside of them and control the quality ourselves.

 

Lastly, ALL li ion batteries need to be tested to UN specs and get UN approval for travel. Even if a battery is under the 8g of aggregate lithium content, the battery must be UN approved before you can travel with or ship it. Ask the other battery manufacturers if their batteries are UN approved and have them supply you with paperwork indicating so. YOU, as the owner of the batteries, are responsible for the battery. Once the other company sells the battery, they wipe their hands clean. If a company tells you that they don't need to have UN testing and approval to travel with their li ion battery, then the company has not done their homework.

 

I hope this helps you in getting a better understanding of li ion batteries. We are continuously working on improving all cell technologies and are continuously testing all new battery types. We work with all reputable organizations that involve battery technologies and their safety.

 

Paul

 

Great points Mr. Dudeck.

 

All of the information you give in your thread regarding LiON battery cells and Li-ON manufacturers is right on target! The users should become much more knowledgable able travel restricitons and any penalities for disregard to those travel restrictions!

 

There is a lot more involved.

 

Panasonic, Saft, and Sanyo require certification before they will sell lithium ion cells directly to a battery assembler. Your people have to be trained on lithium ion cells, how to weld the cells, all the saftey issues, and special weldes are required. We know this because we are in debt for these welders now. Our welders also do a much better job on welding N-CD and Ni-MH.

 

Many companies second source a few name brand Li-ON cells but almost always buy third world lithium cells. The manufacturers of these third worl cells DO NOT CARE what type welders you are using or about the saftey of your employees or your clients!

 

You buy battery, cheap welder fine. You buy battery, we make deal yes.

 

PS. For your consideration, we do final assembly of new nickelcadmium and nickel metal hydride battery packs right here in our US facility for many companies.

 

Sincerely,

 

Ron L. Rathbone

Sales

Rathbone Energy, Inc.

2595 E. Hwy 25/70

Building # 2

Dandridge, TN 37725

There's a better way - rathboneenergy.com - when cell quality is paramount.

www.rathboneenergy.com

sales@rathboneenergy.com

800-223-1775 Sales

865-484-1783 Office & Sales

865-484-1785 FAX