Hytron 140 taming 435's (film cameras)

[Jess Haas SOC]

Series = OK

 

Parallel NOT OK!!!!!!

Parallel is only okay if you add diodes otherwise the batteries charge each other, correct?

 

The point of mixing batteries seems to be to get longer run times from lithium or nimh while being able to handle larger amperage spikes thanks to the nicd. How does running them in series accomplish this? It seems that the nicd battery would run down faster than the other one and even if the nicd were able to provide more amps of power it would all be running through the cells of the other battery.

 

What am I missing?

 

~Jess

[JimBartell]

Parallel is only okay if you add diodes otherwise the batteries charge each other, correct?

 

Yes, but there are two things to consider. First, a diode that can handle 10+ amps is BIG (about an inch long by 3/4 inch diameter) and has to be attached to a heat sink or it will overheat and die. Second, you get about 0.7 volts of drop in a diode which is about half of one cell, so you lose battery run-time there as well.

 

You series batteries to get more voltage (i.e. two 12V batteries to get 24V), which is what most sleds do to get 24V. All Alec is saying is that you can series two different types of batteries to get 24V without problem but should never parallel two batteries.

 

And what you say is true, all the current flows through both batteries in series so you have to make sure both batteries can handle the load.

 

Jim "never underestimate the persuasive power of a sock full of batteries" Bartell

[Colin Donahue]

Jim, I am currently using a Hytron 14 in parell wit a dionics 90 for a 12 volt camera. the guys at AB told me that this is not the most efficient system as the dionic will try to charge itself off the hytron. But it does work. It is important for me to keep the bottom of the sled heavy, so I have both bats at the bottom of the sled and the camera is powered at the lemo at the stage . If I wire them in series, can the video cameras handle 24 volts? I did some research and I am not finding 24 volt video camera. does any body know if this can be done

 

thanks,

colin

[Mike McGowan SOC]

Hello Mike,

 

Thanks for joining in. Wow, this is the first time that I am reading that the Hytron 50's can power the 435 up to 120fps. What chargers are you using?

 

Warmest regards

cheong

 

 

I use 2 AB Dual chargers (model 2722) and 9 Hytron 50's.

[Mark Karavite]

Hey Choeng,

 

To answer your question about battery configuration for different cameras, all of your assumptions were correct, except for the combination on digital cameras. As they are mostly 12v, I use 3 Dionics in parallel.

 

As I said, I have 6 Dionics and 6 Proformers. Since the Proformers are no longer made, the Trimpacs are a good option. 2 thoughts on the Trimpacs: make sure they fit on your rig, because they are wider than other batteries & I'd suggest spending the extra $ for the digital versions, which have a fuel gauge.

 

As for chargers, Anton Bauer suggests you have a charger position for each battery you own. They claim that a battery should live on a charger when not working, which extends it's life (or maybe just sells more chargers). I believe living on a charger does extend battery life. I own a Quad 2702 charger with the DDM (discharge module), and 2 position Titan T2 for simultaneous quick charging on set. So my Proformers have a charger home, I recently purchased a used 2402 2 position charger and an XM-2004 4 position expansion module, so I now have 6 positions for my Proformers for a total of $300. The Proformer chargers stay at home, while I travel with the 2702 & T2.

 

Although a lot of guys carry 9 Dionics, I have never run out of power with 6. With my charger setup, I can fully charge 3 batteries well before the 3 on my sled are cooked. Maybe that will change as they get older.

 

I agree that Hytron 50's are fine for film work, but for the same weight, you can carry a lot more power with Dionics. The Dionics will cost you more, and wear out quicker, but I love not changing batteries until lunch time. It's worth it to me. I had the Hytron 120's, so I've been there. I feel the Hytron 120/140's are just too heavy at 5.5 lbs. I carry 270 watt hours with 3 Dionic 90's at 4.5 lbs. total.

 

If you search, you can still find Proformers, but you have to buy them used and have them recelled. I had a hard time finding 6, so the Trimpacs are an easier route in that respect. Just make sure they fit you battery base. Everyone who has Powercubes loves them. If you are starting from scratch and have the $$, it's a good option. Besides Tiffen, I believe Steve Fracol is also a dealer for Powercubes.

 

Good luck,

Mark

[Eric Fletcher S.O.C.]

Guys,

 

Hopefully Paul Dudeck will chime in here, But....

 

Hytron's will not turn over a 435, and if they will it will be only for a few takes.

 

Why? two reason's first off they are not a high current battery the chemistry is wrong. but the real reason why is the protection board will trip, y'all have seen it as the flashing real time display.

 

Nicads are great for high current as are the new Li-Ion's (As long as you don't abuse the current limits on them) but NiMH are not a battery for high current apps like the 435 and HD cameras.

[Mike McGowan SOC]

You have me interested in hearing from Paul not too as I have run 435's on my pro, with all the bells and whistles going at 150 fps many, many, many, many times using 3 hytron 50's. I've never had the lab complain that it ran off speed and I can't really say they didnt last a decent ammount of time.

 

Now I have rarley shot mag after mag at 150. Usually its for some gag and you spit through 2 or 3 400' mags and move on. So I suppose it's possible that they dont handle consistant all day 150fps but the will for a fact run a 435 at 150fps.

 

Also as I mentioned above, my hytron 50's are just over a year old so I can't vouch for their performance once they get older.

 

mm.

[Jens Piotrowski SOC]

here is what i use...

 

anton bauer

 

QR-HOTSWAP mounts directly to the camera (sled) for true perpetual, continuous battery operation. ... Used with two Dionic 90 batteries, the lightweight QR-Hotswap allows fro 180 watt hours of capacity and seamless, truly perpetual, power. QR-Hotswap can be used with any combination of Anton/Bauer Dionic 90 or HyTron 50 batteries ONLY.

I'm using this adapter to power the camera with 3 instead of 2 batteries either 3 hytron 50 or 3 dionic 90. that should handle any 435.

 

[pauldudeck]

Guys,

 

The "issue" that can/will occur with HyTRON 50's has to do more with the physical size of the 4/3A cell that is used in it than it has to do with chemistry. Since the cell is smaller, as it ages, the internal impedence gets higher. This makes it more succeptible to high current draws, like when turning over a 435 at 150fps. When the HyTRON 50's are new/newer, they work great. The high current draw of a 435 does not have any real affect on the batteries. Once a battery gets to around one year old, then it could have problems.

 

The 435 spikes at current of around 18amps for about 300mS, but then comes down and runs at around 5amps continuous. Once you get by that initial spike in current, you should not have a problem with any battery. Hence the reason why some of the guys run with a ProFormer or Trimpac battery. The Trimpac uses a "C" cell and the ProFormer a "sub-C". They are physically larger and can handle high spikes in current.

 

The ONLY li ion cell that is used right now is called an 18x65. ALL manufacturers would tell you not to pull more than 7amps from the battery, and NO manufacturer will back up the cell pack if you do not have an approved safety circuit. Anton/Bauer is the ONLY battery manfacturer that has full back up from their cell manufacturer as they have approved the safety circuits on all of our batteries AND our chargers. Any li ion battery that allows you to pull more than 7amps of current from it is not a wise decision to purchase. Sorry, but if you want to talk about safety, then that is 100% true.

 

Note: Anton/Bauers Dionic 160 battery is the ONLY battery in the video industry that is not an 18x65 cell. It is a military spec cell that is prismatic, not cylindrical. It is designed to handle 10amps of current from the manfacturer and we have done extensive testing on it before releasing it over 5 years ago. This battery only uses 8 cells, 2 sets of 4 cells in parallel. ALL other li ion batteries over 90/100wh use 3+ sets in parallel. Again, this is another thing that NO battery manfacturer recommends, nor would they approve of it.

 

I hope this helps.

Paul

[Lawrence Karman]

Here is what I use:

 

had this battery "re-celled" while doing a shoot in Tehran a few years back. It's been up and running ever since. Never needs recharging. Haven't changed it yet and don't expect to till 3014. And, bonus, it is nice and warm for those cold night shoots.

 

http://gallery.mac.com/lkarman#100027/IMG_...p;bgcolor=black

 

This strike needs to end; I've got waaaay too much free time. :rolleyes:

[Eric Fletcher S.O.C.]

Here is what I use:

 

had this battery "re-celled" while doing a shoot in Tehran a few years back. It's been up and running ever since. Never needs recharging. Haven't changed it yet and don't expect to till 3014. And, bonus, it is nice and warm for those cold night shoots.

 

<a href="http://gallery.mac.com/lkarman#100027/IMG_...p;bgcolor=black" target="_blank">http://gallery.mac.com/lkarman#100027/IMG_...p;bgcolor=black</a>

 

This strike needs to end; I've got waaaay too much free time. :rolleyes:

 

 

That's damn funny Doc!

 

Heard a rumor that the writes will sort this out in two weeks.

[Lawrence Karman]

Thanks , Eric. I hope you heard right. BTW, I call that battery the Neutron 50.

[Mike McGowan SOC]

Does the Neutron 50 need to be hand carried or can it be checked with the rest of your gear?

[Lawrence Karman]

Does the Neutron 50 need to be hand carried or can it be checked with the rest of your gear?

 

 

Excellent question Mike. I think it might be best to travel by bus with that battery, or nuclear sub, if an ocean crossing is necessary. I should try carry-on just to see if it is noticed.

[nick franco]

[quote name='Lawrence Karman' date='Feb 2 2008, 01:41 PM' post='33025'

 

Excellent question Mike. I think it might be best to travel by bus with that battery, or nuclear sub, if an ocean crossing is necessary. I should try carry-on just to see if it is noticed.

So should we start taking up a collection for bail now?