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Bad RED camera plate


Lars Erik

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Afton had been telling me of his woes so when I saw them I thought that I should really order some..... Haven't yet because I need to spend some time looking at their products and figure out what I should get. Seems prudent though.....

 

As for the cheese plate on top - doesn't the RED let you invert the image?

 

I'm back on this project on Friday. I've got two ET 24" 19mm rods arriving tomorrow. I'll post my thoughts after the shoot.

 

Unfortunately, no. The Red does not have a scan reverse feature. I don't know if a feature of that sort is software based, hardware based, or both. If software only, hopefully it's something that can be added in a future firmware upgrade.

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Sorry you guys are being asked to carry these overweight zooms (doesn't it sort of feel like if it requires a support, it shouldn't go on a Steadicam?); it's a rare show that can actually justify the necessity, other than someone just having a dumb idea.

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Gents--

 

The simple fact is that some people who make decisions that place us in situations like this have a common misunderstanding about camera equipment: their ignorance constitutes no excuse for us.

 

The rock and the hard place, that's where the Steadicam fits!

 

The fact is that show planned on using one lens for everything. Plus, the director has come from a world where "the director's wishes must become reality."

 

Sort of like a king demanding night become day.

 

I held my tongue because the line producer is an old friend and client and refused to let the situation get the better of me. Production rushed in the CXX and I agreed to make things work as long as tenable.

 

Just goes to show you that no good deed goes unpunished.

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3. Front rods. If you have to carry long lenses such as the Cooke CXX or "others" that are front heavy, start planning for support OTHER than the sliding baseplate and long tripod plate. WAY, WAY, way too much weight.

Brant

 

Just went down this highway... expecting a nice, easy day with a RED and primes... ended up with a 15x40 Cooke, sliding baseplate, etc. and fortunately not much else attached and level ground and relatively short shots. Very heavy. Low mode they agreed to flip in post, (and they could) otherwise that would have been a real nightmare.

 

Live and learn.

 

Jerry

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Gents--

 

Here's a way to support the Cooke CXX lens with a pair of 15mm rods mounted to the front of my dovetail plate...

 

 

 

No need for a sliding baseplate or steel rods. I have worked this setup before with an ARRICAM LT and enjoyed the lack of heavy parts under the camera.

 

I am sure that within several months, some third party will have developed a solution for this situation and other RED and lens combinations.

 

Best,

 

Brant

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Just finished my second day on the aforementioned RED project. As we were building the camera, we ran into the same problem that started this whole thread - poor camera mount. I was able to win the battle against the giant sliding baseplate and in its stead we used the shoulder mount which has a noticeable amount of play in it, even when locked down.

 

There was a bit of politics that came into play here. The RED cheeseplate was in the camera package (Element Technica cheeseplate was too, but it was mounted on top for low mode). It certainly appeared to me that the cheeseplate would be a more solid mount, but the Red tech wasn?t able to mate it to the Red base. The tech is a good guy and I didn?t want to overstep my bounds by insisting it could be done and was just being done wrong, especially since I didn?t have a suggestion as to how to do it right.

 

So we went ahead with the shoulder mount. We tried to shim it with some paper tape, but the plate wouldn?t lock into place with the tape in there. Another poor mount that should be noted is the Red drive. The mount is simply not secure and the drive needs to be held in place by gaff tape. I?m curious to know if this is an isolated case, or if others have found the same.

 

The weight was still significant with the 15-40 zoom. I didn?t have a scale with me, but I?d estimate it to be similar to a 435. The big difference is the length of this particular setup which really adds to the pan inertia. I did make myself some power cables for the camera, but if I had lost the weight of the battery the balance would have seriously been thrown off. I did loose some weight since the previous shoot as I got myself two 24? aluminum rods from E.T. - very nice.

 

One problem that remained is one that I imagine plagues many setups with zoom lenses. The physical length of the lens creates a ton of leverage on the camera and the mount. This easily leads to vibration. Most shots are fine, but I did a couple at a near run that had noticeable vibration. Is this a factor of my sled? stage? dovetail? camera mount? or is this a difficult to avoid issue given the physics involved? I?m sure it?s a combination of several of those. I should note that I?m able to press down on the top of the lens and observe flex in the system - not wiggle as though something is loose - flex.

 

Going from Steadi back to anything else (and vice versa) does take quite a bit of time. 20 min perhaps? Most likely with primes this wouldn?t be a problem. With the zoom, there?s a lot of reconfiguration to trim and move the rest of the weight in the setup.

 

Pictures:

Shoulder Mount

 

Trying to shim shoulder mount (didn't work)

 

Red Drive with gaff tape

 

Full Camera

 

Reverse Side

 

Low Mode

 

Low Mode Detail

 

Measurements (tick lines are inches)

 

Measurements Reverse

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One problem that remained is one that I imagine plagues many setups with zoom lenses. The physical length of the lens creates a ton of leverage on the camera and the mount. This easily leads to vibration. Most shots are fine, but I did a couple at a near run that had noticeable vibration. Is this a factor of my sled? stage? dovetail? camera mount? or is this a difficult to avoid issue given the physics involved? I?m sure it?s a combination of several of those. I should note that I?m able to press down on the top of the lens and observe flex in the system - not wiggle as though something is loose - flex.

 

Afton-

 

Making the rig longer increases the leverage and hence whatever flex exists in your system. Making the RED shorter/eliminating the onboard battery will reduce the leverage (but that drive mount may induce its own problems of vibration).

 

With really long heavy lenses, you're stuck with either your solution, making the setup overly long - or going "short" and moving the dovetail forward (the c.g. was about at the film plane in my case) - which pretty much eliminates the possibility of mounting a dovetail on top for low mode. Not a good choice for many situations.

 

Master Series stages - especially the early ones - were, to be polite, not known for stiffness; later ones (like the Ultra 1) were both beefed up with more balls in the races (longer races) and by tighter adjustment of the stage out of the factory.

 

Somewhere on this forum is Larry McConkey's discusion of this stage vibration issue which he solved by adjusting the stage very tight; another fix is to insert small wedges between the stage and the dovetail once balance is set. (C-47's slit apart work fine).

 

My limited experience with the RED - humping the whole baseplate, powering from the sled, etc., was delightful except for the weight, and the change to tripod shooting and back took only two to three minutes (but with just a focus motor attached - no downconverter and hardwired to video village ? less to deal with than what you had).

 

Jerry

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Afton - and others: are you guys buying these downconverters yourselves? Or is it something that you can reasonably ask the production to get in for you?

 

Just wondering whether I have to add another £1000 bit of equipment to my shopping list...

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I think there's an interesting confluence of factors going on here.

 

Right now a lot of RED productions are low-budget; many of them equipped with camera packages owned by individuals rather than from rental houses. As such very few of the cameras out there are properly equipped for Steadicam (in fact the hardware that will make this all work properly for us is still in the development stage, so maybe we should say none of them). For most owners of the camera, having an HD monitoring system of viewfinder, onboard and reference monitor is sufficient; not many are set up to do SD conversion for, say, director's monitors and the like. So the downconverter becomes an a la carte rental at best; with the low-budget nature of most shoots, however, one that is met with blinks and blank stares from the producer when the subject is brought up. Meanwhile many of our colleagues are "making do" with the RED onboard monitor mounted three inches below the camera on its short cable, which is tragically unviewable in daylight and has extremely limited vertical viewing angle.

 

The problem is that neither RED nor a third party has yet to announce a low-cost downconverter, probably due to the limited demand. Again, consider that outside of Steadicam concerns the only time it is really needed for most shooting setups is if there has to be a video village for the director that is separate from the reference monitor, and in the low-budg environment these will be one and the same. So it's hard to know when and if we will see a downconverter with the type of slashed price point that is becoming the norm in this brave new world of affordable production accessories. I find it somewhat ironic considering that my $700 camcorder can downconvert on the fly (as well as shoot 1080 24p)--no doubt we'll eventually see a $250 downconverter, but again I'm not sure how many peeps are focusing on that especially as there is becoming less of a need for SD accommodation.

 

Ed, personally I'd be loathe to purchase a well-established downconverter (AJA, Miranda, Evertz) at this stage of the game for this reason; just make sure that the procuring of same is one of the first conversations you have after getting hired on a RED job (and try to avoid getting roped into "making do" with the onboard).

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Afton - and others: are you guys buying these downconverters yourselves? Or is it something that you can reasonably ask the production to get in for you?

 

Just wondering whether I have to add another £1000 bit of equipment to my shopping list...

 

Just had a phone conversation with Alec Jarnagin and we touched on this exact subject. As of right now, I have not needed to own my own downconverter. Production has always been responsible for renting one. As the HD world grows stronger, and with advances in technology like this affordable [relatively speaking] HD transmitter that was just released, the responsibility will start to shift to the owner/operator to keep their equipment up to date with the rest of the equipment on set. This will mean either updating all your gear to be HD compatible, or buying equipment like a downconverter that will work with your current equipment. There are so many other departments that operate and rely upon SD signals, however, I do think we've got some time before that inevitability happens. And while we're waiting, who knows what new technology might be released?

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Afton - and others: are you guys buying these downconverters yourselves? Or is it something that you can reasonably ask the production to get in for you?

 

Just wondering whether I have to add another £1000 bit of equipment to my shopping list...

 

Just had a phone conversation with Alec Jarnagin and we touched on this exact subject. As of right now, I have not needed to own my own downconverter. Production has always been responsible for renting one. As the HD world grows stronger, and with advances in technology like this affordable [relatively speaking] HD transmitter that was just released, the responsibility will start to shift to the owner/operator to keep their equipment up to date with the rest of the equipment on set. This will mean either updating all your gear to be HD compatible, or buying equipment like a downconverter that will work with your current equipment. There are so many other departments that operate and rely upon SD signals, however, I do think we've got some time before that inevitability happens. And while we're waiting, who knows what new technology might be released?

 

 

ALOHA AFTON

I HAVE PUT SOME VERY SMALL WASHERS ON THE SHOULDER MOUNT RIGHT INSIDE THE LITTLE WHITE PLASTIC AREA

AND THAT HAS TAKEN OUT A GOOD BIT OF THE LOOSNESS NOT 100% BUT DEFINETLY NOTICEABLE, I HAVEN'T HAD ANY PROBLEMS WITH THE HARD DRIVE,BUT I HAVENT HAD THE LONG GLASS THAT YOU ARE WORKING WITH AT HE PRESENT,NOW BUILD 15 LETS YOU DO BOTH THE ONBOARD MONITOR AND MY HD,SDI MONITOR WORK AT THE SAME TIME,I HAD A POWER CABLE MADE TO USE THE BATTERIES AT THE BOTTOM OF THE SLED WHICH I LOVE THAT HAS HELPED WITH IT BEING LONG AND TOP HEAVY

post-1722-1212399155_thumb.jpg

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ALOHA AFTON

I HAVE PUT SOME VERY SMALL WASHERS ON THE SHOULDER MOUNT RIGHT INSIDE THE LITTLE WHITE PLASTIC AREA

AND THAT HAS TAKEN OUT A GOOD BIT OF THE LOOSNESS NOT 100% BUT DEFINETLY NOTICEABLE, I HAVEN'T HAD ANY PROBLEMS WITH THE HARD DRIVE,BUT I HAVENT HAD THE LONG GLASS THAT YOU ARE WORKING WITH AT HE PRESENT,NOW BUILD 15 LETS YOU DO BOTH THE ONBOARD MONITOR AND MY HD,SDI MONITOR WORK AT THE SAME TIME,I HAD A POWER CABLE MADE TO USE THE BATTERIES AT THE BOTTOM OF THE SLED WHICH I LOVE THAT HAS HELPED WITH IT BEING LONG AND TOP HEAVY

 

Hi Mark. Thanks for the suggestions, and let's keep our voices down. I'm going to insist on mounting through the Red cheeseplate from now on. The shoulder mount is out. Even if I could get the wiggle down with washers or anything else, if it's not 100%, it's not good enough. I too have my own power cables, and I would love to be able to get rid of the battery weight, but with such a lens up front, I actually need the weight of the battery in the back in order to keep the CG of the system somewhere within the camera body - not way up front in the lens.

 

Just curious why you would run both the onboard and your own monitor? For focus? The AC on this gig has been trying to get me to let him mount the RED monitor on the camera for him. I've been sticking to my guns and he has been doing just fine without it. That's what rehearsals are for. If you've buzzed the focus, yeah, a monitor will let you know, but it's already too late at that point. Another thing, along the same lines, they've been asking to mount the camera handle on the top of the system. Without it, it's a rather awkward camera to pick up and move around. If the whole system wasn't so heavy, I might allow it, but I'm trying to save every ounce, especially up top. I'm not going to allow something that makes 5 seconds of their job easier while making hours of mine harder.

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Just curious why you would run both the onboard and your own monitor? For focus? The AC on this gig has been trying to get me to let him mount the RED monitor on the camera for him.

 

 

hey afton

i leave the monitor on mostly for the menu settings for the DIT,the monitor has this kool focus band for the ac,who uses it to get things started,the hystogram and other levels are easily checked as well

since i don't have a downconverter it also lets the director have a look and its good for playback

oh! and that was the happy medium i agreed upon,so they don't get the camera body handle

and i definetly respect you for sticking to your guns,that is a long ass rig your flyin,way to go

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NOW BUILD 15 LETS YOU DO BOTH THE ONBOARD MONITOR AND MY HD,SDI MONITOR WORK AT THE SAME TIME,I HAD A POWER CABLE MADE TO USE THE BATTERIES AT THE BOTTOM OF THE SLED WHICH I LOVE THAT HAS HELPED WITH IT BEING LONG AND TOP HEAVY

 

Hey Mark, I'm starting nine days on a RED film that begins shooting in Phoenix this weekend; my first with the RED. Fortunately we have primes and the DP has CF cards that will hold four minute "loads", plus I'm having Terry West build a power cable for me so the weight and length factor should not be such an issue as poor Afton is having. I was worried a bit about getting them to give up their HD monitor since my sled is SD and I'll have an AJA box. The ability to run both will be a good compromise assuming they are on Build 15. This RED has some kind of breakout box added for connectivity as well.

 

Thanks to everyone for posting such a great stream of information as this new camera begins to make its way into our world. This is such a great use of the Forum and community.

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Took a trip over to Element Technica yesterday and picked up a few parts for the RED. One thing to note is that the cheese plate needs to be attached to 2 rod brackets that sit on top of the camera and bolt on from the side. Without these brackets (either the 19mm RED issue ones or the 15mm or 19mm ones made by ET the cheese plate will do you no good. I say this because if you purchase just the plate w/o the brackets you may arrive on the job to find that the camera may only have the bottom dovetail plate and not these necessary brackets, rendering your investment useless.

The viewfinder bracket they make is awesome, BTW.

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