All about GYRO's

[Marque DeWinter]

While I understand what a gyro does I'm wondering how much it helps or hurts for steadicam. Is it possible that as a newbie it might be worth it to get two KS4s early on to get those shots looking better until I've got enough practice to ditch them unless the conditions get bad? I understand the noise factor (i'm also a sound guy). thanx in advance...

 

~Marque

[Afton Grant]

While I understand what a gyro does I'm wondering how much it helps or hurts for steadicam. Is it possible that as a newbie it might be worth it to get two KS4s early on to get those shots looking better until I've got enough practice to ditch them unless the conditions get bad? I understand the noise factor (i'm also a sound guy). thanx in advance...

 

~Marque

 

Gyros generally aren't a tool for everyday use. They're really aids for extraordinary conditions - high wind, vehicles, etc - and even then the shots are still possible without. Also, it wouldn't do you much good to practice with them on, since you could really only get good at operating with gyros. As soon as they're removed, you would need to retrain yourself.

 

You'll really do yourself the most good by just good old fashioned practicing. The harder you challenge yourself while practicing, the easier shots will be when normally operating.

 

Don't think that gyros aren't a useful tool for your kit. If you've got the money to buy them, go right ahead. Even the best ops have them...they just don't use them all the time.

 

Best,

Afton Grant

[Eric Fletcher S.O.C.]

While I understand what a gyro does I'm wondering how much it helps or hurts for steadicam. Is it possible that as a newbie it might be worth it to get two KS4s early on to get those shots looking better until I've got enough practice to ditch them unless the conditions get bad? I understand the noise factor (i'm also a sound guy). thanx in advance...

 

~Marque

 

 

Twenty years of operating steadicam and I have put gyros on the rig twice and used them exactly ZERO times.

 

Practice, learn to operated the rig without outside assistance, learn when you might want to use them THEN make the decision

[Thomas English]

wow.... zero in 20 years Eric,

 

I just bought some gyros. Mainly because I did a nintendo spot (for america so you may see it soon) and it was on a ferry in greece and it was very very windy with slow slow creeping shots. I did it without gyro s but I really wanted some. So i bought some, mostly so I would not feel I was missing out on not having something.

 

I think it is a once in a blue moon thing but maybe I will use them more now that I have them.

 

I think as a newbie you should completely forget about gyros. Contentrate on static balance, operating neutrally balanced, work out dynamic balance etc etc.

 

I also practise a lot with my rig completely out of balance! muscling my way about.

 

Also off course you should practise in the wind! blustery wind. I have lots of blustery wind in brighton if you need some. I will start a shop on ebay.

[Leigh Hubner]

Hi Thomas,

 

I was just wondering, what currency will you be selling the wind in? Euros or US dollars? Will shipping be included in the overall wind price or does it find its own way here? I am based in Australia, any ideas on shipping times? How do you ship wind... ohh.. hang on, mexican last night... I think I have my own shippment due... good luck to us all..

 

Quick, someone pass me a Gyro!!

 

Leigh

www.loosecannon.com.au

[Charles Papert]

I have had virtually the same experience as Eric: 20 years, mounted them once, used them never.

 

To be fair, I rented them; had I owned them I might have used them on other occasions. I have owned Antlers for 8 years and used them a number of times, although less and less these days for whatever reason.

 

Some operators use them quite a bit (I know Jim McConkey was a big fan, not sure if he still uses them as much).

 

I've long had issues with the level of technology vs cost--it's just a bloody shame that no-one has come out with a modern version (or that K-Labs have never bothered themselves). A few years ago an Israeli outfit claimed to have built a better mousetrap; built-in inverter for 12v operation, more power efficient etc. but there was just one problem--they didn't work. If anyone wants a gyro that sort of rolls around like a puppy in a shopping bag, please contact me, I'll make you a great deal!

[Brad Hruboska]

I have had virtually the same experience as Eric: 20 years, mounted them once, used them never.

 

To be fair, I rented them; had I owned them I might have used them on other occasions. I have owned Antlers for 8 years and used them a number of times, although less and less these days for whatever reason.

 

Some operators use them quite a bit (I know Jim McConkey was a big fan, not sure if he still uses them as much).

 

I've long had issues with the level of technology vs cost--it's just a bloody shame that no-one has come out with a modern version (or that K-Labs have never bothered themselves). A few years ago an Israeli outfit claimed to have built a better mousetrap; built-in inverter for 12v operation, more power efficient etc. but there was just one problem--they didn't work. If anyone wants a gyro that sort of rolls around like a puppy in a shopping bag, please contact me, I'll make you a great deal!

 

 

I got into a set few years ago when Rick Raphael sold me his K-6's with an invertor. I find that for long lense work, and windy conditions they do help take the curse off many slower precision heavy shots where you dont gnereate enough momemtum in the shot to ensure stability against the wind. they are a bugger on the stops though, if they cage they sway the rig, but better than having the rig ripped out of your hand by gusty winds that shred 4 x 4 nets and the grips trying to stabilize them. I was lucky in that the set was a great preice and I was able to procure bracketry at a reasonable cost and made adapters for Pro/3A posts, ultimate, and ultra sleds. I dig them, but they are heavy with a big 35mm camera. 435/lightweight is kinda the comfortable limit. B)

[Larry McConkey]

I have had virtually the same experience as Eric: 20 years, mounted them once, used them never.

 

To be fair, I rented them; had I owned them I might have used them on other occasions. I have owned Antlers for 8 years and used them a number of times, although less and less these days for whatever reason.

 

Some operators use them quite a bit (I know Jim McConkey was a big fan, not sure if he still uses them as much).

 

I've long had issues with the level of technology vs cost--it's just a bloody shame that no-one has come out with a modern version (or that K-Labs have never bothered themselves). A few years ago an Israeli outfit claimed to have built a better mousetrap; built-in inverter for 12v operation, more power efficient etc. but there was just one problem--they didn't work. If anyone wants a gyro that sort of rolls around like a puppy in a shopping bag, please contact me, I'll make you a great deal!

 

 

I got into a set few years ago when Rick Raphael sold me his K-6's with an invertor. I find that for long lense work, and windy conditions they do help take the curse off many slower precision heavy shots where you dont gnereate enough momemtum in the shot to ensure stability against the wind. they are a bugger on the stops though, if they cage they sway the rig, but better than having the rig ripped out of your hand by gusty winds that shred 4 x 4 nets and the grips trying to stabilize them. I was lucky in that the set was a great preice and I was able to procure bracketry at a reasonable cost and made adapters for Pro/3A posts, ultimate, and ultra sleds. I dig them, but they are heavy with a big 35mm camera. 435/lightweight is kinda the comfortable limit. B)

[Larry McConkey]

I have been using gyros for over 15 years and it is only for special circumstances, but that includes:

 

Crane shots

Vehicle shots

Long lens exterior shots

Exterior with wind

 

They do make noise, so sound recording can be an issue, if not, gyros can be a godsend. You must have a system that you can slap on in a few minutes and dynamic balance is easily achievable. You want maximum good effects and minimum bad effects. That comes down to how you mount them, and more recently, I have discovered, matching them. If you have that, you will use them fairly often.

 

I have tried many different schemes for mounting over the years, but the latest system I am using is the best so far, and it uses only 2 KS-6's for body mounting, and 2 KS-8's for vehicle mounts, although all rules are meant to be broken. The key is to get a matched pair that complement each other, that is, balance each other out.. Recently Kenlab has started making the housing in house and with far greater precision that in the past. This makes an enormous difference, and now I found that it was possible to order a half dozen and test them against each other until finding a pair of each kind that really work well together.

 

The current scheme I am using is mounting them at right angles to each other, and each mounted 45 degrees to the axis pointing forward (the line pointing forward through the lens, of the longitudinal axis). I have come up with a couple of mounting brackets that do this, one for the KS-6's and another for the KS-8s that allow dynamic balance on the Ultra. If there is enought interest, I could see about ordering a batch ofthe units to find pairs that match, and manufactuer brackets for other operators. At the moment I have only designed the brackets for the Ultra, but others could follow if there is interest. Let me know!!

 

Larry

[Thomas English]

Mr McConkey, I have very much appreciated your kind papers and generall information about using Gyro s with regards to steadicam, thankyou very much.

 

When you mount them at 45deg off axis, this is I assume to stop them caging when whipping the rig.

 

In your experience, does a 45deg gyro effect dynamic balance differently compared to a gyro that is switched off. I am having difficulty getting my head around the forces of a gyro related to the centrifugal forces it applies. Particularly because there are two gyro s going in different directions....

 

At the moment I am dynamically balancing the gyro s whilst switched off (particularly for the gyro working against the plane of rotation, i.e. the one on its side). If I try and test it switched on, well it cages and I feel the physics are reverting to as it was when the gyro was switched off.

 

I used one them in a full on gale on tuesday (the high winds we got from you guys) on the coast in Dungeness. 36mm lens and really everything was so sweet. Shot s I could never have done in those conditions otherwise. I am very pleased with my purchase. Although the extra stability was also probably helped by the fact it was an ArriST with regular mags, regular top and 4 PAG batteries on the bottom all sent out to their maximum distance. (well out of dynamic).

[Johanwindfeld]

do anyone know how the gyro works with running and stopping fast....? and what about using only one gyro at the time on the rig.. I need to doo a lot of sports, and need to run with the fotball players, but when they stop and turn around then I need to stop right away.. with no level problems.

[Johanwindfeld]

:lol: maby some one here knows more about gyro

[Michael Barhak]

While I understand what a gyro does I'm wondering how much it helps or hurts for steadicam. Is it possible that as a newbie it might be worth it to get two KS4s early on to get those shots looking better until I've got enough practice to ditch them unless the conditions get bad? I understand the noise factor (i'm also a sound guy). thanx in advance...

 

~Marque

 

Hi.

I?m following this forum for a while and I see that the all Gyro discussions

Ignoring one simple fact:

The Steadicam is not initially designed to work with Gyro.

I?m a Gyro stabilizers operator and technical person for many years.

Nothing is stabilizing better then Gyro when used correctly.

The problem is the Gyro can?t be used correctly on existing Steadicam post.

It needs modified post and different balancing approach.

The common mistake of using Gyros is ?let the gyro stabilize? usually ends with disturbing the gyros till the system is erratic or constantly unbalanced and

Difficulties in ?steering? the camera.

The reason is: all the rigs attached with additional gyros are basically working against

Gyroscopic stabilization mechanics and principle.

You might find a solution by trial and error for a certain shot and that?s why

Gyros are not popular.

The other question to ask is:

How comes that Steadicam didn?t changed in 30 years?

The answer is :

Inertial stabilization when used by a good operator with a wide lens covers about 90

Percent of required shots.

But the rest 10 percent are the interesting shots when the stabilization achieved by ?Balance? or inertial stabilization is not enough.

Also the Gyro stabilized Steadicam need a different operator?s technique.

The gyro stabilized Steadicam should perform better:

 

* Faster operator body movement.

* Eliminating the ?Dutch? effect or roll of the horizon completely.

* Tilt up down feature can be done without tilting the post.

* The system can be motorized or fully manual.

* The overall system will be the same weight as existing Steadicam.

 

The sound problem is a minor problem.

The wind problem can?t be solved completely by definition unless the operator

Will be fully environmentally protected that?s ?kills? vehicle high speed usage.

 

 

 

That?s about it .

 

:P

 

:lol: maby some one here knows more about gyro

 

Hi.

I?m following this forum for a while and I see that the all Gyro discussions

Ignoring one simple fact:

The Steadicam is not initially designed to work with Gyro.

I?m a Gyro stabilizers operator and technical person for many years.

Nothing is stabilizing better then Gyro when used correctly.

The problem is the Gyro can?t be used correctly on existing Steadicam post.

It needs modified post and different balancing approach.

The common mistake of using Gyros is ?let the gyro stabilize? usually ends with disturbing the gyros till the system is erratic or constantly unbalanced and

Difficulties in ?steering? the camera.

The reason is: all the rigs attached with additional gyros are basically working against

Gyroscopic stabilization mechanics and principle.

You might find a solution by trial and error for a certain shot and that?s why

Gyros are not popular.

The other question to ask is:

How comes that Steadicam didn?t changed in 30 years?

The answer is :

Inertial stabilization when used by a good operator with a wide lens covers about 90

Percent of required shots.

But the rest 10 percent are the interesting shots when the stabilization achieved by ?Balance? or inertial stabilization is not enough.

Also the Gyro stabilized Steadicam need a different operator?s technique.

The gyro stabilized Steadicam should perform better:

 

* Faster operator body movement.

* Eliminating the ?Dutch? effect or roll of the horizon completely.

* Tilt up down feature can be done without tilting the post.

* The system can be motorized or fully manual.

* The overall system will be the same weight as existing Steadicam.

 

The sound problem is a minor problem.

The wind problem can?t be solved completely by definition unless the operator

Will be fully environmentally protected that?s ?kills? vehicle high speed usage.

 

 

 

That?s about it .

mishka@eyal.org.il

[Thomas English]

I really appreciate your post Mishka, however you seem to leave more questions than answers .

 

?The Steadicam is not initially designed to work with Gyro.? .... why not? What design features negate the use of gyros

 

?The problem is the Gyro can?t be used correctly on existing Steadicam post.? ..... why not? Whats wrong with the range of post clamps or in my case MK-V cage brackets

 

?It needs modified post and different balancing approach.? .... really? I just balance with the gyro s turned off and then turn them on, tweaking the balance as the mag moves through based on what slow feeling I get. Is this any different to operating with a longer camera or antlers?

 

?The common mistake of using Gyros is ?let the gyro stabilize? usually ends with disturbing the gyros till the system is erratic or constantly unbalanced and

Difficulties in ?steering? the camera.?..... I don t understand your point at all.... I just operate as normal just possibly with a full grip seeing as it is a howling wind and I am intending to let the gyro do the stabilizing.

 

?The reason is: all the rigs attached with additional gyros are basically working against

Gyroscopic stabilization mechanics and principle.?..... How?

 

?* Tilt up down feature can be done without tilting the post.?..... wow! How do you do that?

 

?* The system can be motorized or fully manual.? ..... Really? What on earth are you on about?

 

?* The overall system will be the same weight as existing Steadicam.?..... what by not using any batteries on the sled and powering your whole sled/camera from a battery belt and cable s

 

?The sound problem is a minor problem.? ..... I would love to see you try and explain that whilst doing a daily on a feature with a crew you don t know

 

I am very interested in using my gyros, I think maybe with hindsight I may be missing some very clever point s you are making in your post, did you translate it using a computer based translator? Does that explain ?* The system can be motorized or fully manual.? as in ?The gyros can have the power kept on them or unplugged just before the shot?

 

I promise I am not trying to be difficult, just am very interested in anything anyone has to say about using gyros and would love to get to the bottom of your post.

 

What gyros are you using Mishka? Are you using those 12v Israeli gyros? What ever happened to that company? They just disapeared or got way too many military contracts to be able to serve civilian customers as is often the way with specialists like this.

 

Regards

 

Thomas

 

Oh and Marque, If you are worried about wind, buy some antlers.

[Bruce Alan Greene]

I really appreciate your post Mishka, however you seem to leave more questions than answers .

 

?The Steadicam is not initially designed to work with Gyro.? .... why not? What design features negate the use of gyros

 

As a long time gyro owner, I think Mishka has it about right. When we mount the gyros on the steadicam, we work against their stabilizing force to pan and tilt the camera. This makes operating with the gyros a challenge and a compromise.

 

On the other hand, I've used them very successfully on vehicle shots and heavy wind for dialog when there was no other way to get an acceptable shot, but fast panning and tilting isn't possible when the gyros are mounted and working. There have been a number of times I would have liked to use them, but the sound was just too loud, but they worked well at the beach where the wind and wave noise overwhelmed the sound of the gyros.

 

That said, I don't think I've used them in the past couple of years...

 

If one does get them, the mount should be as solid and stiff as possible, the gyros stabilize enough that even strong looking metal can bend when trying to overcome the gyro for panning. This bending can create a standing wave that will wobble the whole rig uncontrolably (somehow the spelling here looks weird to me and I don't have a spell checker in firefox ) ;) .

 

-bruce