Mark Schlicher

Going from memory here but I believe you can send the component "Y" signal out simultaneous with an HD-SDI output, without much messing around in the menus. Send that to a composite input for a monochrome composite signal, for a workable compromise. More recent firmware might enable something more, but I don't know.

Incorrect and incomplete.

Since the original thread, I worked things out. The production company turned out to be just ignorant of how things needed to work. When I patiently explained why I needed the cert, they got with their insurance company and hooked me right up.

As I understand it, the cert has no legal force itself...it's just a document that confirms that the production has loss and liability insurance and that you would be covered by it.

Who pays deductable is a separate matter, one that ought to be discussed and covered by your deal memo.

So yeah, production may be insinuating that they would not cover their deductable, and that would be important to clear up!

I've also come to understand that you should also have your own insurance policy to back yourself up in case a production weasels out of a claim on their policy, or for direct clients, etc. I took care of that in January.

Both seem (slightly) high for a first generation Flyer, but not unreasonably so.

You should understand that the Flyer LE has an extendable carbon fiber post, 4-5 pounds more lifting capacity, and a larger diameter gimbal handle.

However, it's not a bad rig and a definite step up from the Pilot in many ways.

I like the thorough description on the Hawaii rig, rather than cut n paste from Tiffen blurbs. And it's a little cheaper, to boot. The condition of a rig is important, as is the reputation of the seller. That's one reason buying on the forum is generally a good idea.

Yes, Flyer LE ($5k or so used)

Or consider a Scout for around the same price new. Similar to the Flyer in capability with updated sled design. If you can find a good LE that is HD, go for that. I don't remember if the standard def flyer comes pre-wired for HD, but the Scout does not.

And you should change your ID to your real name, that's the rule around here...

Yes, I did use the calculator back in August.

I'm not asking to be "spoon-fed" anything. I wasn't asking about the calculator. I was asking about the mathematical and logical assumptions underlying your conclusion.

I was attempting to reconcile differing opinions about the design limits of a piece of gear I use. One from you, one from the manufacturer, one from Jerry.

To that end, I was asking for clarification about your basis for an opinion you expressed. I was not arguing with your opinion.

If you believe my questions are a request to be "spoon-fed", then PLEASE feel free to simply ignore them. Your condescension is uncalled-for.

Seriously.

Revisited one of the threads again. http://www.steadicamforum.com/index.php?showtopic=12842&pid=68884&st=0entry68884

Distilled:

from Eric: 22ga max current handling 4.6A

from Jerry: Lemo 0B 303 panel connector 6A

from Jerry: 100W at 26V (below battery knee) current draw is 3.85A. At nominal 29.6V, 3.18A.

Eric's opinion: 22ga and 0B is insufficient at 100W.

Jerry's opinion: 18ga and 0B fine at 100W/24V (didn't speak directly to 22ga)

Left unanswered (but math above suggests it should work): 22ga and 0B at 24V sufficient? Note 22ga handles 4.6A, 26V/100W dras 3.85A.

Also: I've run Red Epic at 12V with two Dionic 90's successfully on long shoot days. The Epic is 65W/14.4V nominal, plus BFD receiver/Heden motor@ "35W maximum". This equates to the neighborhood of 7A.

In this "real-world" situation it worked fine, though the voltage drop did cause the Epic to shut down very prematurely when using crappy old rental house batteries. Mounting a pair of fresh Dionic 90's we got excellent battery life. Also, we had to power on the BFD receiver before the camera, otherwise the Epic would shut down from the momentary voltage sag.

Eric,

You've now stated four times that 22ga wire is "not appropriate/inappropriate" with little elaboration beyond "math" and "real-world experience". I understand that this is your considered, informed professional opinion. I'm trying to have a clear view of the data and assumptions underlying your opinion, as well as the type and level of risk of powering an Alexa on this rig (and how to minimize/mitigate it if possible).

This discrepancy between your advice and Tiffen's lies at the heart of the topic of the thread.

I haven't disassembled my post but I believe I've read that Tiffen sleds use a rubber-band-y thing instead of a coil, reducing the length of cable considerably. That's why I estimated 48" instead of 96".

I studied the thread you're referring to at the time it was active. I read about the skin effect and internal resistance and bundling issue. All understood in general. I don't have local access to a test rig to test empirically.

You stated a 16% loss based on doing math on 22ga cable. How did you arrive at that specific number? I'm genuinely trying understand what you took into account.

Since the Alexa accepts 12-30V, if the sled is offering 28.8 nominal, even two volts of voltage drop is well within what the camera will accept. So voltage drop in itself shouldn't be a problem, right? Heat buildup, possibly, of course. Am I missing something else?

Quoting what I was told by a Tiffen factory employee. His exact words. He also predicted ".5 to .8V voltage drop" which tracks with my quick observation on a recent Epic gig.

When you say "not appropriate" do you mean not ideal/not preferred, or is there a significant potential safety or sudden failure issue?

An electrical engineer built an 24" Zephyr/Alexa cable for me out of 18AWG cable, and did some tests on his programmable test rig. At 45 minutes of continuous load at 110W, 27-24V (about 4.2A), the cable rose in temperature about 10 degrees above ambient and leveled off within 15 minutes. At 112V and 12V, the cable rose 45 degrees (to 120F) in 10 minutes, which he described as "uncomfortable" but "still useable".

Can't directly extrapolate these results to a 22AWG wire at 48" inside a center post, just reporting the information, since it is often said that 18AWG is also insufficient.

I'd like to know more about the math involved. How do you arrive at the 16%/2V loss estimate?

I don't think any Zephyr owner in their right mind would try to sell their rig as appropriate to a typical NY/LA big-budget/studio/network set. Like any rig, the Zephyr has limits that determine what production environments, what markets, what kinds of clients it is suited for.

That said, researching, but not relying exclusively on, published specs makes sense. Tiffen's published Zephyr specs were incomplete and initially inaccurate. Testing confirmed this. The Zephyr is still a new rig (barely a year of actual production units in the field) so there's a lot of experimenting going on, as to what will work and how to make it work.

So...thanks Dave, for sharing your experiences and adding to the real-world knowledge base. It sounds to me like you have a good handle on your business model and it sounds like your Zephyr will work well for you and your company.

Thanks, all, for your perspectives and cautions. They are important and well-stated.

Re: the wiring, I've been told by someone at Tiffen it's 22 AWG. I was also told "22 is fine for the 100 watts of power". Voltage drop appears to be less than one volt. I'm sure 14AWG would be better.

Robert & Alan,

Important to clarify here!

The outer shell is plastic, but the structural "guts" are all metal. None of the structural parts on the topstage (or bottom spar, for that matter) are plastic. The outer casing is partly cosmetic and partly meant enclose the wiring and anchor the connectors. I disassembled mine once, I don't remember seeing any cast parts, I am certain the dovetail receiver is CNC-machined, I believe all of the other relevant parts are machined also.

Dave,

It makes sense that one battery could power a stripped Alexa with no powered AKS...it is rated 85W with viewfinder, so if you subtract an estimated 5W for the viewfinder (I'm just guessing) and add back 12W for the HD monitor you are at 92W. So a name-brand battery could (just barely) handle a power-hungry Alexa. Note that the GENERICs are typically rated with lower current-handling capacity: The 95watt-hour GlobalMediaPro battery, for instance, is only rated to 55 watts current draw!

As for runtime, IDX rates Powercubes (and the similar E-HL9s) at 88 watt-hours; AB rates HCx at 100watt-hours, so a brand new, 100% capacity HCx or Powercube would each last about one hour with a totally stripped Alexa. Not horrible, but you'll still need a boatload of batteries. Of course, if you wanted to fly it like that, you would also need a 12V Alexa power cable.

I had lots of trouble finding good information on power. I did end up talking to some helpful folks from Anton Bauer, as well as the respected battery receller John Ritter, and digging up published specs where they were available.

There's actually good discussion in the archive but, as you say, not very definitive. The two issues are high current draw/battery wear, and high wattage/short runtimes.

Powering your monitor separately helps for sure. Plus I don't think the BFD is constantly drawing 36w, that's just the published spec that I believe applies when the motor is cranking.

The hardest thing for me to initially wrap my head around was the 12 vs 24v battery question. I've had some unpleasant surprises on Red Epic jobs with the age/performance of rental house batteries, but I don't want to tear my own batteries up unnecessarily by running at their current draw limits. 24V definitely solves this. You ended up going 24V for your Alexa power cable, correct?

Gotcha. Thanks. It's a pretty solid vest, even up past 20lbs payload. Miles better than the old Flyer vest.

Ron,

Curious what you consider to be wonky about the vest...?

The Zephyr vest appears to be essentially the old Provid vest with a Flyer-sized socket block and adjustable velcro-ed shoulder straps. Is it the velcro that concerns you?

That is a good point Rob...in all honesty, I would try to keep that rig at or below 20 lbs. The wonkiness of the vest may also be a concern.

Oh, also...your sled-to-Alexa cable needs to be wired differently for 24V vs. 12V. Same connectors, different pinouts I believe... just throwing the 12v/24v switch won't work.

Robert, your observation about camera stage attachment is well-taken. The post connects to the camera stage via a metal collar arrangement with five hex screws that go all the way through a metal inner-collar that, in turn, is pinned into the CF post. Seems structurally robust, but I definitely have to check the screws regularly....they tend to loosen up just enough to introduce vibration/play from time to time.

Yes, it can be flown in a reasonable lightweight configuration, with enough "headroom" to add a BFD, filters, etc. The body is only 14-15lbs without viewfinder. Add a 4lb Optimo lightweight zoom or a lighter prime with clip-on mattebox, 15mm rods, BFD and motor and you've still got a little wiggle room up top, but not much. A loaded configuration with cinetape, prompter, Preston and multiple motors, video TX, heavy lenses, baseplate, codex, lockit box, etc. definitely ain't happenin'.

The original weight specs published for the Zephyr were inaccurate. I tested my rig extensively and sent the results to Tiffen. Their revised, current specs exactly mirror my findings.

The 23lb camera payload is correct; you could probably squeeze up to 24lb. My tested arm lift is 36-37lbs. Bare sled with a monitor (no batteries) is roughly 7 lb, leaving a maximum of 7lb for a 12/24V plate, batteries, balancing weights, cables and other AKS mounted at the base.

Power is a challenge that is partly met with the 24V 2-battery plate. The power draw for camera alone is 80W or more. BFD and motor adds "up to 36W". Add another 12W or so if powering a monitor on the sled. That's around 130W, so you will be BLAZING through batteries, even with two mounted. No way can you fly with just one battery. You will need a bucket of batteries if it's a long day. A pair of 1 year old Dionic HC batteries (assume 75% of original capacity) will power for less than an hour.

Also, batteries will tend to "cook" and wear out much faster under high current draw, so running in 24V mode lowers the current, and is much easier on longterm battery health. A pair of (fresh) Powercubes or Dionic HC's are the minimum, with plenty of spares. Higher capacity batteries will probably work too, but be aware of the weight issue. Dionic 160's are 3.4 lb each, so a pair tips over the weight limit. Generic 160WH batteries tend to be lighter, about 2.5 to 3lbs.

Prospective Zephyr owners need to understand that the rig, though a great value, will not stack up to situations where production expects you to be able to handle any random monster Alexa/lens/baseplate configuration they throw at you. A good prep is mandatory, as is a willingness to say "no" to a gig that is beyond the rig's capacities.

How about $20 off any listed price above?

Had a brief chat with Jim Bartell at Cinegear last year and that's what he told me...but it sounded like there was some talk of adding the appropriate connection to the BDR. Maybe I misunderstood, or maybe something like that is in the works.

I don't have any personal experience with ebay (and other generic) batteries. There are varied opinions expressed on other threads, you should read them and it may help you make up your mind.

How about $125? that's more than 1/2 off.

Bump. I'm motivated to sell these so pm or email me with an offer on any or all. mark at sunporchmedia dot com.

As conversations get more specific about AKS, etc., perhaps we should branch them out into the appropriate sub-forums rather than having them buried in this Zephyr mega-thread.

Thanks for posting about the transmitter, I'm going to check the link now...

Thanks for the link. Yes, cheaper than $495 but still expensive. It looks pretty much identical to the bracket on the Zephyr, except for a different power connecter (the Zephyr uses a 3-pin Lemo.)

Since an IDX v-mount plate is about $100 by itself, you could consider that the rest of the components (bracket, metal backplate and wiring) is about $320.

John,

I have a Zephyr but the bracket is similar (if not identical). I'll try to snap a pic this afternoon (I'm off to a meeting right now) but also call Tiffen. I feel like the $495 price may be a mistake. At least they might be able to sell you only the components you actually need.