Bad RED camera plate

[Erwin Landau]

And one from the Dummy side:

[Ed Moore]

Hi y'all,

 

We built the camera with the 'red cradle' (which holds the drive and battery) on top because of some issue with having the right number of accessory mounting adaptors. I was also interested to see how short I could make the rig - being a bit bored with the 3 mile long HDCAM/Varicam + pro35 combination...

 

We didn't have much time or I would have tried it with the drive at the back.

 

In the end, I've ordered a Red power cable from Tiffen. With the sled powering the camera and a lightweight matte box, the Red with the Archer is very pleasantly light, as well as being easily DB-able on the Archer without needing all those mods.

 

Other questions I was asked: yes, as someone pointed out I used the Red LCD on the rods because there's no built in downconverter. However, as well as the usual downconverters there is now available a box that permanently bolts on to change the horrible mini-BNC connectors to full size, and also contains a downconverter. Worth looking out for.

 

A big benefit to using the RED is that it shows you (on the preview outputs) a large border outside what is actually recorded so you do get some warning if booms etc are about to intrude - i.e. same as an optical viewfinder.

 

For low mode you can can a special cheeseplate from Element Technica that wedges very firmly between the top bars and looks pretty good. Otherwise you can use two of the Red 'universal adaptors' mounted to the top bars and get two screws into your steadicam plate that way. I'm sure Brant's VLS would work a treat as well.

 

Cheers,

 

Ed

[Peter Hoare]

Hi Ed,

 

I flew a Red the other day, and we had one of those fancy BNC boxes ont he side. Unfortunately, it still only outputs 720p HDSDI, which wouldn't work with my SD only monitor, so I had to use the Red monitor anyway.

 

The cheeseplate seemed pretty solid on our rig...

 

And, against all odds, and being told over and over again that it was impossible, I managed to successfully fly a RedOne on a Flyer :lol:

 

[Igor Savatovic]

And one from the Dummy side:

 

Hi Erwin

 

Is that the "AJA HD10MD3 HDTV HD to SDI Down Converter" on the dummy side??

 

I plan to buy this downconverter, and to use it with RED ONE. How it behaves, is there to much delay on the monitor, and how is the picture in general. I plan to use it with my Transvideo Cine III monitor, I found it more convinient then to buy an HD monitor but I'm still not sure...

 

I worked only once, a long time ago, with Miranda on CineAlta, so actully I dont remeber how was the picture!? I only remeber thet the picture was "jumpy" !?

 

Anyway, any suggestion, any toughts, anything... :-)

 

Igor :-)

[Ryan Somerfield]

Hi Ed,

 

I flew a Red the other day, and we had one of those fancy BNC boxes ont he side. Unfortunately, it still only outputs 720p HDSDI, which wouldn't work with my SD only monitor, so I had to use the Red monitor anyway.

 

The cheeseplate seemed pretty solid on our rig...

 

And, against all odds, and being told over and over again that it was impossible, I managed to successfully fly a RedOne on a Flyer :lol:

 

 

Hi Peter,

 

Well done for getting the red on your flyer, im really glad to see that it does work, im bout to do some test footage on the red one. (although he wants me to have matte box, follow focus, 2x hdsdi cables, genlock, hard drive, sdi down converter audio and random crap), so im going to have alot of fun distributing weight around the rig, but hey there isnt a camera ive flown with thats been too heavy which im quite impressed with.

will post photos once done (and video too hopefully)

[chris hagen]

Hey, thats great to see that it does work on the flyer, Im doing a short on the RED in June and theres no money for a big rig so my flyer will have to do the trick.

Having a gearcheck next week probably, will post my experiences.

 

Peter >> What clamp is that holding the RED monitor on your post? Doesnt look like it´ll hold up on a running shot...or does it?

 

Cheers Chris

[Afton Grant]

Hi Peter,

 

Well done for getting the red on your flyer, im really glad to see that it does work, im bout to do some test footage on the red one. (although he wants me to have matte box, follow focus, 2x hdsdi cables, genlock, hard drive, sdi down converter audio and random crap), so im going to have alot of fun distributing weight around the rig, but hey there isnt a camera ive flown with thats been too heavy which im quite impressed with.

 

Easy with that "isn't a camera I've flown..." stuff. Here's a RED setup I bet would give you a run for your money... I couldn't believe how heavy that little camera became once all the accessories, and most obviously the lens, were put on there. Brant Fagan and I have both day played on this same project. This camera setup has pushed both of our rigs to the limits. I believe it even bent a piece of Brant's equipment, although I believe that would be less to do with the total weight than the simple awkward distribution of the weight. It's so front heavy, creating so much leverage on the system, it puts extreme stress on certain parts.

 

Point being, the Flyer is an excellent rig when used within its limitations. Be sure to due your homework about the camera package before getting to set.

 

Mid-day: Started day off with large sliding baseplate (not shown). Got rid of that. Still silly.

 

 

End of day: After much tinkering and configuring, got it to a reasonable (relatively speaking) setup that allowed me to balance the sled as I like.

[Ed Moore]

Easy with that "isn't a camera I've flown..." stuff. Here's a RED setup I bet would give you a run for your money...

 

Yuk, that looks heavy.

 

What downconverter were you using, Afton?

[Charles Papert]

Good gravy Afton, what were you guys shooting that you needed zooms like that (and I really hope it wasn't in the name of "variable primes")...! Is that a 24-290 in the first picture??! And I'm guessing from the engraving that the second one is the Cooke 15-40? not a bantamweight either (the Ang 15-40 is pretty sweet though). That's some meat you were carrying--not to mention the steel 19mm rods which alone weigh a ton. Good thing you at least jettisoned the top ones at least.

 

I haven't been over to Element Technica in a while but their solutions will ease much of this madness--lots of things there that have no real place on a Steadicam!

 

But I guess the important thing is the cautionary tale here that Afton alludes to, which is that one must be VERY careful about accepting a job with a camera that is so dependent on the hardware that comes with it; no two REDS are configured alike and unless you own the bits and pieces to make it lightweight, you run the risk of not being able to carry everything that might be needed for a shot and thus frustrating the DP. Even without having to carry a zoom and with everything stripped off like in Peter's picture, just the choice of primes might be the factor that tips the scale (the weight difference between an old Zeiss and a Master Prime, say, can be as much as 5 lbs--luckily the lower budget the show, the more likely to get light lenses). And then there's things like onboard fill lights.

 

I had to do a shot in a tight hallway recently that took a 90 degree turn; the electrician holding the fill light thus couldn't get the head out far enough to avoid seeing the light get cut off the actor closest to the corner. In addition there were some Kino tubes on the rather low ceiling, so I had to be boomed up high to not see them, cutting off any possibility of the fill being extended on a boom. So I put on a Litepanel, which I had just gotten configured to be remote dimmable via Preston motor, allowing the DP the ability to dial the level up and down as we got closer/farther from the actors. As it was I had to make a really exaggerated and late turn so we wouldn't catch the corner, giving away the fill light. It was a brutal and indelicate dance but we got the shot--had we not had that Litepanel it would have been a wash. Point is, having the light gag was definitely part of the battle but it was no problem to mount up (about 1.5 lbs with motor) and again if that had been the tipping point weight-wise, ugh. Of course you can always overload a sled and muscle through it by lifting the arm, but you don't want to have to do that for many reasons.

 

My recommendation for those who intend to fly REDs on their flyers is to start assembling some basic building blocks to accommodate the more uselessly heavy components of the typical setup, like those steel 19mm rods for one (Element Technica's coated aluminum rods are 1/3 the weight with much of the strength, certainly OK for the battery/drive rack). I have a feeling that once the appropriate Steadicam-related bracketry and mounting products are in place, many operators will have to think about owning them to ensure that they don't have to keep re-inventing the wheel every time they go on a RED job, just as we used to have to own low-mode brackets for the ARRI 3/SR's etc.

[Afton Grant]

Yuk, that looks heavy.

 

What downconverter were you using, Afton?

Sure was.

 

AJA. It's velcroed underneath the nose of the top stage, on top of the MDR. I was trying to keep the weight as low as possible since the camera/lens combo is extremely top-heavy. That's also why we eventually moved the battery/Hard drive bracket down to the low position.

 

There's a great article in the latest ICG mag by Michael Chambliss about dayplaying. He discusses the woes of not always being able to attend a prep day, and how you must adapt to what the set has to offer. When I first arrived, there was basically only time to throw up the camera as they had it built. As the day went on, during lunch and high/low mode switches, I was able to tweak the camera setup to be more friendly. Throughout the day, I couldn't help but think of Erwin's thread about the latest generation of shape-shifting digital cameras. True true true.

 

 

Is that a 24-290 in the first picture??! And I'm guessing from the engraving that the second one is the Cooke 15-40? not a bantamweight either (the Ang 15-40 is pretty sweet though). That's some meat you were carrying--not to mention the steel 19mm rods which alone weigh a ton. Good thing you at least jettisoned the top ones at least.

I believe that first picture was an Ang 18-80, and yes, you're right about the Cooke 15-40. Carbon rods would've been ideal, but they are apparently difficult to find (or so I've been told). Getting rid of the top rods was only possible with the Cooke, as it's shorter and doesn't require the full length of rod out the front for support, allowing the drive and battery to use some length at the other end.

 

 

I haven't been over to Element Technica in a while but their solutions will ease much of this madness--lots of things there that have no real place on a Steadicam!

 

My recommendation for those who intend to fly REDs on their flyers is to start assembling some basic building blocks to accommodate the more uselessly heavy components of the typical setup, like those steel 19mm rods for one (Element Technica's coated aluminum rods are 1/3 the weight with much of the strength, certainly OK for the battery/drive rack). I have a feeling that once the appropriate Steadicam-related bracketry and mounting products are in place, many operators will have to think about owning them to ensure that they don't have to keep re-inventing the wheel every time they go on a RED job, just as we used to have to own low-mode brackets for the ARRI 3/SR's etc.

Couldn't agree more. Brings me again to Erwin's post, and Chambliss's article. If I had the privilege of a camera prep, I most definitely would've not only found the ideal configurations, but picked up anything I didn't have but needed. I know Brant picked up one of Element Technica's cheese plates which made low-mode much easier. ET does seem to be leading the way with accessories to make the RED more friendly. Why it isn't RED themselves leading this way, I don't know.

[Charles Papert]

ET does seem to be leading the way with accessories to make the RED more friendly. Why it isn't RED themselves leading this way, I don't know.

 

The RED guys have publicly stated that they are happy to leave the peripherals up to third-party manufacturers at this point so that they can focus their energies on developing cameras. It makes sense really.

[Afton Grant]

The RED guys have publicly stated that they are happy to leave the peripherals up to third-party manufacturers at this point so that they can focus their energies on developing cameras. It makes sense really.

 

Fair enough.

[Erwin Landau]

Not really...

 

They made a half ass camera, now they are adding 2 more that are differently shaped with different attachment points and AKS and now they are letting other people fix there problems... I would love to know where ARRI would be with that kind of an approach, surely not celebrating there 90-ies birthday.

 

How about making that thing work before adding even more stuff that doesn't work properly.

 

Yeah the picture looks "beautiful" and the Camera Imager is inexpensive... but after you buy all the AKS, you are still looking at $60K...

 

Frustrating,

 

 

Erwin

[Brant S. Fagan SOC]

Gents--

 

While day playing on a little movie shooting with the RED One I experienced some of these issues firsthand.

 

My feeling is that RED is playing this one much like some of the 4x4 truck manufacturers. That is to say they make the basic "vehicle" and you must then outfit it for the "terrain" that you wish to explore.

 

RED obviously wish to build and sell camera bodies and some lenses as well but would rather the "nuts and bolts" were handled by third party folks. This sounds like another equipment builder we all know from years gone by...

 

At any rate, as a Steadicam operator, you have several key issues to deal with and prepare for.

 

1. Camera mounting points. Think low mode and go buy the Element Technica cheeseplate. Best solution and still can be used to mount other items for other modes of operation.

 

2. Accessory mounting points. Think rods. Start considering the Element Technica rods made from aluminum. They say carbon rods will be available soon.

 

3. Front rods. If you have to carry long lenses such as the Cooke CXX or "others" that are front heavy, start planning for support OTHER than the sliding baseplate and long tripod plate. WAY, WAY, way too much weight. I bent a 12" stainless steel .049" wall "manmaker" arm post carrying a RED package that was decidedly NOT set-up for Steadicam and thus overpowered my Ultra arm. Once we switched the offending lens and accessories out (Ang. 17-80mm lens and 24" stainless rods, baseplate, and brackets) and installed the CXX and my own custom dovetail plate 15mm rods for motors and lens support, things flew just like a PFX LW.

 

4. Concise and solid explanations. Some people think the RED works by itself and that their package is "complete." As the Steadicam Operator, you must be prepared to give an explanation for how all this "stuff" works together or doesn't work together. Producers can be reasonable if you provide answers that make sense to them. Crying about no prep day is not going to change things out there on set. You must provide solutions and make it clear that this can actually work if there is good two-way communication. Obviously, this all should be worked out ahead of time, but let's face it, the learning curve with this camera can be steep and deep.

 

Here's a look at my little lens support and motor rods for the RED and CXX set-up:

 

http://www.steadicamforum.com/forums/style...e_types/gif.gif

 

Enjoy this camera! It really does make nice pictures and can be a pleasure to carry if you ask the right questions and stand up for what you need.

 

Best,

 

Brant

[Alec Jarnagin SOC]

"Element Technica's coated aluminum rods are 1/3 the weight with much of the strength, certainly OK for the battery/drive rack"

 

Funny, my wife was shooting with a RED in my backyard this past weekend (nothing like someone shooting at your house on your off day). I looked at the Element Technica rods (http://www.elementtechnica.com/products/) and was very impressed. Strong yet very light. Afton had been telling me of his woes so when I saw them I thought that I should really order some..... Haven't yet because I need to spend some time looking at their products and figure out what I should get. Seems prudent though.....

 

 

As for the cheese plate on top - doesn't the RED let you invert the image?