Looking for Steadicam Operator for RED, warning: LOW BUDGET

[XiaoSu Han]

Hey,

 

now that's a good idea.

 

So I'll offer the following kit up as an exchange:

 

RED ONE incl. all the accessories, 4 batteries, etc. etc.

Cooke S2 Lens Set in BNCR mount, RED has BNCR mount.

Ronford F4 Fluid Head incl. Tripod

FF-4 Follow Focus

Redrock Mattebox incl. all kinds of filters

 

So that's a complete camera kit, it goes for about 1500 USD a day at local rental houses.

 

I am offering you a weekend with our kit, the only condition is that we operate. Obviously you operate your steadicam as well, so we operate our camera.

 

So if you've got a production and are looking to shoot on a weekend and strike a deal, here it is. We don't shoot on weekends, so that's good. Also, we're here for a few days after the shoot completes, so there's some time as well.

 

So the deal is, you come down to Brooklyn, fly us that one shot, we'll hire ourselves to your project for free, for one weekend. That's at least 3000 USD worth of gear plus 2 days worth of operator rates. I am 100% serious. I am willing to go the extra mile to make this shot happen, sure, we can get a pushcart, wheelchair whatever, but I want the Steadicam for this shot. You are asking for assets? We don't have cash, so here's our asset.

 

Anyone?

[XiaoSu Han]

The funny thing is, in the past we could never find an operator so we scratched our money together and bought a knockoff-item. We know that it definitely isn't the same and you get what you pay for, but it was our only chance to do certain shots which wouldn't have been possible without the "steadycam".

 

I also don't want to insult anyone as I know that it takes a lifetime to be a good operator, but I just wanted to show you guys what we've did with our knockoff item, one of us operating:

 

http://dedicated13.nessus.at/colormediumlanmov.mov

 

http://dedicated13.nessus.at/concretegarden.mov

 

I know that it's really bad steadycam work on a professional level, but it improved the production value anyways. Now we're at a point where we've got a heavier camera and want to do more complicated moves, we are definitely looking for a pro to do it. We could do it, but out of respect for the craft we don't. As said, we don't have cash, but are willing to do something extraordinary to make that shot in this movie happen.

 

Cheers, Xax

[Sydney Seeber]

Here's what I don't understand. You say you've invested 40 grand in gear. Was that throw away money? It was just kicking around, and you thought you'd just blow it on something? Point being, for most, that 40 grand is an investment, and usually people expect a return on their investment, hence all the posts here. Wouldn't you like to see a profit at some point? Because, it doesn't seem you're focused in that direction. Didn't you or at least someone you know well work hard for that 40 grand? Your camera will be a pariah in a couple of years. Not trying to be a dick, I'm completely serious. The digital camera realm will constantly be usurped by one brand name after another for decades to come. Within a couple of years, you will see a significant falloff in interest for your Red camera. I guarantee it. Now is the time, hell, yesterday was the time for it to generate you an income. That's where I'm coming from in my responses. Yeah, I'd like the business world to be like Cheers the bar, but until that day dawns, I've got to make a living.

[Fabrizio Sciarra SOC ACO]

Xiao,

So you are looking for someone to do you a favor or maybe get a newb to do something for their resume , so other than offering them a reel builder, chance to sweat and risk their gear on an uninsured shoot there's nothing else?

 

You said you have 40k worth of gear on your project, what about offering up your gear in exchange, we promise to be careful with it, we won't need it for more than one shot, it shouldn't take more than a half hour or so . . . . ..

 

or maybe Rent a rig from B&H, they'll give you a deal . . . . . . and let someone else on the crew that's getting paid the same as everyone else have a crack at getting the shot for you. The AC on the crew, I'm sure would love to strap on a rig and give it a go.

 

Wait, better yet, you can do it yourself and save the money.

 

All ribbing aside, I think I can speak for all of us when I say we are all for someone making their dreams come true and if that dream is your movie, then awesome, good on ya ! But asking strangers for favors in the realm of petty cash is a little out of sorts.

 

Hook up a local on ( www.homebuiltstabilizers.com ) maybe they can pull the shot off for you and be very happy about getting the opportunity to use the Red.

 

Don't take it personally that you get a harsh response on the forum but pretty much all of us have been asked to do one of these and almost every time, it's way more of a headache and damaging to the gear and/or body that makes it very unappealing to us.

 

If you can't get a steadicam shot, reconfigure the script, do it with a doorway dolly, steal a wheelchair, do it on rollerblades, whatever it takes to get the shot to work in the script. On the next bigger budget project you do you will appreciate each piece of gear and the professional behind it that much more

 

• Shoot Safe

• Feed the crew

• Give them breaks

• Be Fair

• Everyone will smile and do it again

 

All the best

 

Yo Rob, great post

[Louis Puli SOC]

Hey,

 

now that's a good idea.

 

So I'll offer the following kit up as an exchange:

 

RED ONE incl. all the accessories, 4 batteries, etc. etc .

Cooke S2 Lens Set in BNCR mount, RED has BNCR mount.

Ronford F4 Fluid Head incl. Tripod

FF-4 Follow Focus

Redrock Mattebox incl. all kinds of filters

 

So that's a complete camera kit, it goes for about 1500 USD a day at local rental houses.

 

I am offering you a weekend with our kit, the only condition is that we operate. Obviously you operate your steadicam as well, so we operate our camera.

 

So if you've got a production and are looking to shoot on a weekend and strike a deal, here it is. We don't shoot on weekends, so that's good. Also, we're here for a few days after the shoot completes, so there's some time as well.

 

So the deal is, you come down to Brooklyn, fly us that one shot, we'll hire ourselves to your project for free, for one weekend. That's at least 3000 USD worth of gear plus 2 days worth of operator rates. I am 100% serious. I am willing to go the extra mile to make this shot happen, sure, we can get a pushcart, wheelchair whatever, but I want the Steadicam for this shot. You are asking for assets? We don't have cash, so here's our asset.

 

Anyone?

 

Hi Xiao

Congratulation now you are offering something of some value not small change or token amount which most operators are insulted by.I know there will be some one how will take you up on this offer .

Good Luck

Louis Puli

[XiaoSu Han]

Here's what I don't understand. You say you've invested 40 grand in gear. Was that throw away money? It was just kicking around, and you thought you'd just blow it on something? Point being, for most, that 40 grand is an investment, and usually people expect a return on their investment, hence all the posts here. Wouldn't you like to see a profit at some point? Because, it doesn't seem you're focused in that direction. Didn't you or at least someone you know well work hard for that 40 grand? Your camera will be a pariah in a couple of years. Not trying to be a dick, I'm completely serious. The digital camera realm will constantly be usurped by one brand name after another for decades to come. Within a couple of years, you will see a significant falloff in interest for your Red camera. I guarantee it. Now is the time, hell, yesterday was the time for it to generate you an income. That's where I'm coming from in my responses. Yeah, I'd like the business world to be like Cheers the bar, but until that day dawns, I've got to make a living.

 

Hi Sydney, studying for a year at AFI costs over 60K USD. Is that throwaway money? Can I turn that into a profit?

 

I've invested 40 grand in gear because that's how I think it will work for me. I've shot a project in Hong Kong, a feature film in London, one in NYC now and another in London later this year with my partner DOP and we're looking for two more this year, we're shooting all those projects on the camera we've invested in. That for me is worth the same as film school, and it costs the same. At the end, I might sell the stuff and at least for the RED ONE body I am getting almost the whole amount back. We have a very low serial number and thus are in line for an early EPIC, and people are going to want that. Also, equipment like an ARRI FF4 or a mattebox does not lose value too much too soon. Lenses? Bargain, will sell for more than bought.

 

So I invested 40 grand not to make profit out of the camera package, we don't even rent it out. It's our door into small projects, networking and building our reel. At the time we've had this camera for a year, we will have shot 4 features on it as DOPs. That, for me, is more worth than the first year of film school to me. Additionally, I will make 30 grand back selling the equipment. That's for sure.

 

Oh yeah, the projects it gave us, we almost broke even on the investment already.

 

So no, I didn't blow the money, I invested it although I am not out for profit. Not yet.

Edited July 8, 2009 by XiaoSu Han

[Sydney Seeber]

Hi Sydney, studying for a year at AFI costs over 60K USD. Is that throwaway money? Can I turn that into a profit?

Are you serious? Hell yeah, it's an investment, I can't imagine looking at it any other way. I expect a return on my financial investment into any kind of training. You absolutely cannot compare digital cameras to film cameras in relation to resale value, especially with an unproven upstart of a company in a shitty economy. The precedent has already been set in the still and ENG camera markets, as the technology changes at a phenomenal pace. I have quite a few magnesium paper weights... How about a full size Sony DVCAM, sold new in 2005 for $30,000, now you can buy it new on B&H for under 10 grand. Anybody wanna shoot their project on DVCAM? Anybody? Too bad they didn't forsee a 4K revolution WAAY back in 2005... I've even got a REALLY expensive Hasselblad that's only about 4 years old, but the agency it belonged to gave up on it after the company changed lens mounts, rendering it obsolete in a matter of months. It cost more than the Sony when it was new, thank goddamn it was a hand me down. All I'm getting at is anyone who's into this long term needs to treat it as a business, all of this future money you speak of is in theory only, not real $. Maybe they'll make an Epic, after they deal with their current financial problems. Maybe you'll eventually get real paying gigs. That's gravy if you do. Right now is a tangible thing... Which leads me back to the motivation behind the responses. I hear your same story at least a couple times a week, almost word for word, including the responses. I can't afford to do strangers favors... I hook up friends now and again, that's about it...

[Robert Starling SOC]

+1 on what Rob wrote !

 

Equipment doesn't make great films, great people do. The best investment you can ever make is in the people and crew that support you. Pay peanuts and get monkeys.

 

As professionals our job is not to be Steadicam operators, our job is to run a successful small business and if we do that well balanced on all fronts, we'll have the opportunity to offer our creativity and skills with our rigs.

 

Favors are for friends, everything else below a fair rate has to have something else beneficial in the value proposition for the operator; you've offered work but as you can see, you've missed the mark for the operator part of the equation. Instead, you've valued the purchase of equipment over the value of talented crew. We didn't make that decision, you did.

 

Equipment can always be rented for pennies on the dollar but not talented crew. Maybe you should have invested your capital in a different way, or maybe you're the next great thing but I've never heard a truly great Director or DP attribute their success or the success of their project to a piece of gear or camera; it's always the crew and actors supporting them that they credit.

 

You can always rent equipment but you can't rent a client or talent.

 

Best wishes for your success,

 

Robert

[Ed Moore]

This has actually turned into a great discussion.

 

Rob and Robert - both excellent posts!

 

And Xax, I think offering the RED package for a free hire in return is a great move - plenty of steadicam ops also wanting to shoot their own stuff and this makes a sensible trade.

 

Good luck with your project.

[XiaoSu Han]

It's funny how people have really gotten this up the wrong throat, seems that the industry isn't in too good a shape after all.

 

I have not valued anything over anything else. I just asked a colleague over here for a favor. I don't know anybody here, and like that, it's hard to get to know people. I now agree that favors are only among friends. Now it's not a favor anymore, it's a very very fair trade.

 

It's very ignorant and unfair not to acknowledge the offer I've made, but keep on bashing my initial posting instead which I think I have withdrawn with the offer made.

 

"Pay peanuts and get monkeys." - I absolutely don't agree with that on a general basis, in the steadicam world maybe, but not entirely in the filmmaking world. For that I've worked with too many great people, maybe you remember some free favors in your career as well, and maybe those people would be insulted if you would call them monkeys.

 

If your passage about me offering work is about the posting I made offering our equipment, I am offering my operating for free as said. I am offering 3000 USD worth of equipment, and in a money-ridden world, that equals two days of an operator incl. his steadicam kit as I've understood. Why is that a wrong equation? As for 1500 USD someone can rent a fully working RED kit, I can expect for 1500 USD to get an operator that's worth his money including the praised skill and creativity, right?

 

I am the DP of this project, I was HIRED AS WELL. Now as I was hired and try to be as professional and skilled and creative as possible. And thus we've planned this steadicam shot. As written before, I am going the extra mile to get this shot.

 

Sorry, but your arguments contradict themselves. As I've understood, for 1500 USD I can rent an operator with TALENT and EQUIPMENT. I definitely can't rent a client, why would I want to, but I can rent TALENT. I can rent EQUIPMENT. I totally agree that equipment is secondary. But I don't understand why you can't rent talent.

 

Thanks for the people who understood what I am trying to do.

Edited July 8, 2009 by XiaoSu Han

[Sydney Seeber]

Something you're not factoring in is the fact that this site is full of established people who feed their kids by working on your project. A request such as this, in essence, is asking someone to take time out of their day, away from their family, to do you, a stranger for all intents and practical purposes, a favor. A favor is what $150 really is. That can contribute significantly to any hostility you may feel you're experiencing... I can't speak for anyone else, but after many, many of these requests for productions in general and not just stabilizing gigs, it's easy to get more than a little frustrated with it. Trust me, everyone here understands where you're coming from. Try to see the other side of it. A younger person just starting out may not view all of this the same way, and would be much more open to your idea. Said young person would be much more open to the idea of trading services... A dangerous road to travel trust me, but it does happen a lot. The vast majority of the modeling profession is made up of this... Very few photographers and models are actually making a living trading services back and forth, and support their habit with their "Day" job, working in a bank or whatever. For most of the people here, this is their "Day" job, and most probably wouldn't be open to the idea. It's good to have friends, and a major benefit from going to school and meeting those friends. I went to a 4th party the other day with probably 70 people all around the pool who have the same connection as me. I'd probably do several of them a favor...

I'm not trying to bash you bro, I'm trying to show you the position you're putting yourself in financially. You yourself, ignore the gear for a second, are trying to create a business. It's not just a free for all where everyone holds hands and we build the barn like the Amish. People will take advantage of the fact that you're basically charging nothing, and by posting this here, you're passing it on. You need to charge for your services, or you won't do this for very long. Most of the ones responding here have been in exactly the same situation as you. I don't even discuss shoots or edits with people who randomly call me. You want to save money on your production, I'll certainly discuss things with you... For a consulting fee. You'll make it up on the back end, I swear! You'll save thousands! Anyhoo, I've been burned too many times to go over said production for free, then they proceed they call somebody cheaper/suckier with my ideas. And that's just the phone call. You don't even have to meet in person to start losing money. I know it probably seems like an awesome field to work in for a lifetime, but if you're going to make a living, you need to establish the rules right off the bat, and charge at least enough that you can consider yourself working professionally. I've got a LOT on that subject as well...

What did the Joker say? If you're good at something, never do it for free, I think it went...

[XiaoSu Han]

I definitely understand where you guys stand and what you need for that to continue.

 

I also didn't ask for a seasoned pro to come out here and do this.

 

I just thought that maybe someone with a Flyer LE RED edition or Actioncam rig or anything similar to that, Glidecam V-25 etc. who just got the rig used for cheap and wants to start out in the business may need some material anyways and so on.

 

I do understand and expected, but find it a little unfair for the people to react that harsh. Everyone has his reasons, but "I wouldn't do it for xxx reason" is better for me than "I hope you find nobody".

 

I bet this site is full of established people, but I do hope that there are newbies out there as well. And to those I tried to appeal. Maybe I should just include a full disclaimer the next time.

 

No hard feelings.

[Brad Grimmett]

Xiao,

You've been open and honest about what you need and what you're willing to provide in exchange. It's not ideal for a lot of people, but it will be a doable deal for someone who wants to shoot something on his/her own. The fact that you've hung around to respond to questions and challenges says something about you.

I hope you find someone and that you are BOTH happy with what you get.

Good luck.

[Alec Jarnagin SOC]

Well put Brad. Xiao, NYC (like many places) has become so saturated with REDS that they rent for next to nothing now. Steadicam (luckily) is still a fairly rare thing so your numbers are not as close as you may think, but your determination is there so good luck.

[Mike Marriage]

Best of luck with the project, hopefully your offer will be of mutual benefit to someone. MUCH better than your original offer!

 

This thread has gone quite off topic but has turned into quite an interesting discussion. Like everyone in the industry, I have thrown the odd favor. Some have led to absolutely nothing others have created amazing and profitable opportunities. There's plenty of people who'll take the piss given half the chance, we just have to avoid them and try not to become them ourselves I guess.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Mike Marriage