Guys! Enough with saying yes to the low rates

[Eric Fletcher S.O.C.]

When I sent my rate they immediately put a CL ad up spouting the awesomeness and listing their rate: $400/day (rate and rental included).

 

 

Seriously anyone advertising on Craigslist for a steadicam operator isn't someone you want to work for.

 

Just sayin....

[Jess Haas SOC]

As long as we are venting. I recently got undercut by a guy who is working for free on the film because it is shooting out of the country and they are paying for the trip. I think he is getting like $14/day in perdiem as well... Of course he doesn't own wireless follow focus or wireless video so they have to rent those. Also doesn't have a downconverter, or any sort of real battery setup for his rig.... I don't normally wish for people to fail but sometimes you just have to hope they get what they pay for.

 

~Jess

[Charles Papert]

When I sent my rate they immediately put a CL ad up spouting the awesomeness and listing their rate: $400/day (rate and rental included).

 

 

Seriously anyone advertising on Craigslist for a steadicam operator isn't someone you want to work for.

 

Just sayin....

 

Obviously not someone you and I want to work for, Eric, because we don't have to. For the newer guys, though, the hiring process for low budget stuff often goes through these or similar channels, and while I'm sure a lot of these gigs may be a waste of time, there are legitimate and worthwhile (if poorly funded) projects out there that may be using these resources. I know that on a couple of small projects that I've shot, the producers have posted for grip and electric help via Craigslist and we've found some decent crew that way. You network any way you can get it.

 

I think the key is to read between the lines--listings that come off all arrogant (remember our thread about "award-winning" directors a while back?) are a red flag. Likewise those who promise that the next project is the big one and you're all coming. I was passed one where the carrot was intended to be that the director had a big budget project in development and he intended to take the DP from this little no-budget deal on with him on that. One would think that such a promise would be entirely dependent on how the first one went, of course--not to mention that development doesn't mean funded, so it's all pretty meaningless.

[Brian Freesh]

So the AC just called me and told me the DP stepped away from the project due all the production BS. Sounds like the thing with me was just one of many blunders!

 

All I know is I'm smilin'

 

As far as CL in general. I've never given up looking, but I don't think I've actually applied for a Steadicam gig that listed the rate up front, cause it was always too low. And I've never heard back from the ones I send my rate to.

[nealnorton]

This is an interesting thread. There really seem to be 3 topics. Mainstream Steadicam operators going low-ball, young new Steadicam ops trying to break in and get experience and the rates of DIT's v. camera operators.

 

Last year I had negotiated a feature film with a 'name' director and a DP I have worked with in the past and who wanted me to operate the show. The deal was not great but not too bad. A week after we came to an agreement they changed their mind and rescinded the offer and put forward a silly deal that just wasn't realistic - really. Tier 6 kinda offer. I turned down the movie. . . but another skilled and established operator jumped on it. Hard to argue with production when good people will work for very little money. It might work out for the other guy if the director or DP now make him the 'must have' operator and he does 5 movies at a good rate. Hard to say. We are in competition, guys and there will always be some one who will work cheap.

 

The young guys that are breaking in have no choice. They are going to work for any rate that allows them to get experience and meet DP's and Directors. The hobbyists will find out how hard the job is and fade away, the good ones will grow their business and command more money and start to fight for the better jobs. Then THEY can start complaining about the low rates the new guys are asking.

 

As to the DIT making more money than an operator. . . that stands to reason. I have done 2 shows in HD, one a feature and one a TV show. There is NO doubt in my mind that these TV station technicians are going to be replacing the DP entirely. They control the exposure decisions, approve lighting set-ups and have the confidence of the producer and the studio - and the DP's are going along with it! There will be no need to pay a DP, the gaffer will light the set at slum dog wages and the DIT will decide if it is technically O.K. Look, the director can SEE the 50" HD monitor and decide if it looks good. The DIT will tell the producer that according to rec 709/sub a.2 and the HTNL lic agreement with the SCE committee of the HD raw consortium that the IRE requirements of the software vendors are met and that post production config for the LUT/FU is in good shape. . .and the producer will thank her lucky stars they have such a knowledgeable DIT/DP to protect the show. The DP's are toast. They better start learning how to pull cable:)

[Norbert von der Heidt]

There will be no need to pay a DP, the gaffer will light the set at slum dog wages and the DIT will decide if it is technically O.K. Look, the director can SEE the 50" HD monitor and decide if it looks good. The DIT will tell the producer that according to rec 709/sub a.2 and the HTNL lic agreement with the SCE committee of the HD raw consortium that the IRE requirements of the software vendors are met and that post production config for the LUT/FU is in good shape. . .and the producer will thank her lucky stars they have such a knowledgeable DIT/DP to protect the show. The DP's are toast. They better start learning how to pull cable:)

 

I've been in the TV biz as everything from Gopher to Director for over 30 years and I've seen this coming for a long time. I was for many years a CCU operator on a 4 camera mobile and I've seen 99.9% of people lighting, making creative and quality assessments from a big broadcast monitor either on the floor or in the control room. Never a DoP or light meter in sight!

 

When I trained my replacement at a production company, I tried to impart a sense of creativity and imagination in him but on a subsequent day shoot, he gave us this really crappy image. When I asked him why he was doing this, he told me "well, the engineer said that white should always be at 100IRE". Obviously he had been turned to the dark side in my absence.

 

We always used to envy the film guys for being crasftsmen, artistes, professionals who's good/bad/go again opinions were solicited regarding takes, etc...while us TV techs were just pointing the camera, adjusting the iris, rolling tape while the directors called for a playback, looked at the monitor, listened to the audio and made their own decision whether it was good, bad or needed to be changed, no need to ask the monkeys their opinions! We didn't like it but we accepted that was our lot in life. Sorry to say this guys but welcome to our world.

 

When you have the ability to quantify, measure, apply LUTs, etc to the creative process and then make that into something that can be learned from a book, the battle is lost!

 

Best of luck one and all. ;)

 

Cheers

[Andrew Ansnick]

Brian,

 

I remember that email you sent me about the ad on Craigslist for this job. I sent them my full rate + rental and never heard back from them lol. Guess they thought it was laughable what a real rate is. The producer was a fool for passing up on your offer in hopes to establish a long term working relationship. Don't fret, I'm sure they hired someone who will make them regret not hiring you and they will learn the meaning of "you get what you pay for".

 

-Andrew

Edited February 10, 2010 by Andrew Ansnick

[Darren Levine]

The new age market has brought down steadicam rates just as much as it has rates for other media roles

 

I blame craigslist and the advancement of technology. Anyone and their mother can buy a steadicam/stabilizer for a few grand and claim to be an operator. same with any video camera. i teach digital video filmmaking and i have to debunk soo many myths, misconceptions, and just flat out horrid information that people pass around.

 

I agree that the only way to battle it would be to band together and set minimum rates for different situations, there are troubles with that, but the adantage we have is that steadicaming is still a very niche skill by comparison. it's very easy to weed out the posers from the experienced operators.

 

I think that the excuse for taking a low paying gig ends when you have a complete reel. meeting new directors/etc... that's called "maybe" work, and in my experience that maybe work doesn't end up being better paying.

[William Demeritt]

I blame craigslist and the advancement of technology. Anyone and their mother can buy a steadicam/stabilizer for a few grand and claim to be an operator. same with any video camera. i teach digital video filmmaking and i have to debunk soo many myths, misconceptions, and just flat out horrid information that people pass

 

As an aside, consider the words of Francis Ford Coppola back in 1981 (disregard the title of the video):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zui4s0aLpr4

 

Recent story from here in LA: a director I've worked with as G&E since October 2008 has used me as a Steadicam operator on a few shoots. A week ago, I wasn't able to do a shoot for a rate he offered. He simply said, "I guess I'll have to find someone else." Sure enough, he found someone willing to come out, with equipment, to fly the RED (and I know their camera package, so it wasn't a Flyer) for $225. And no, not $225 for 12 hours... I know the director, that's $225 for "until I call wrap", which can go to 13 or 14 hours. No OT. Further, the operator was not a "new guy", or a new owner. He's apparently operated for many years.

 

My friend gaffed the video, and he told me in conversation that the operator "never charged overtime" and that he "usually just stays around until it's all done." He also indicated he's never made more than $300 on a shoot (all included).

 

I understand the pressure, I feel it now more than ever (after operating for 2+ years, I finally own a rig). Perhaps this operator is another example of someone who's slipped through the cracks, and we haven't had the opportunity to talk to him about rates? Perhaps the task is ours (the Guild, the community, etc) to reach out to those operators and plant the idea: here's what other operators with similar gear and more/fewer years of experience are quoting for the jobs. Here's the minimum they'll come out for, and for how long. When they realize they can, and should, be asking more for their services, perhaps that'll encourage them to do so?

 

Lack of knowledge is the root of bad decisions. The more we educate and join together, the more we all prosper. Isn't that why unions exist in the first place?

 

In the mean time, I'm going to try and get that operator's number, just to talk. Threads like this just seems like preaching to the choir.

[chris fawcett]

To everyone:

 

Perhaps the time has come to loose our reticence to 'name and shame.' I understand the reluctance we have to this, but I would consider it a reasonable tactic under the circumstances. If anyone gets unfairly named while paying back an old favour, or doing a charity gig, they can defend themselves here on the forum. I certainly wouldn't object to being challenged, fairly or unfairly.

 

Any thoughts on this?

 

Chris

[William Demeritt]

If anyone gets unfairly named while paying back an old favour, or doing a charity gig, they can defend themselves here on the forum. I certainly wouldn't object to being challenged, fairly or unfairly.

 

You may not object to being challenged, fairly or unfairly, but some people might. What happens if someone is unfairly challenged, and that person has no access to the forums to properly defend themselves for days or weeks? Even if the person then properly explains themselves, the damage is done with the operators who haven't come back to read the refuting testimony.

 

I think that doing our laundry in public should be discouraged for the same reason that discussions on rates are discouraged, but also out of respect for the damage done by a false accusation.

[RonBaldwin]

To everyone:

 

Perhaps the time has come to loose our reticence to 'name and shame.' I understand the reluctance we have to this, but I would consider it a reasonable tactic under the circumstances. If anyone gets unfairly named while paying back an old favour, or doing a charity gig, they can defend themselves here on the forum. I certainly wouldn't object to being challenged, fairly or unfairly.

 

Any thoughts on this?

 

Chris

 

I say do it!

[chris fawcett]

Dear William,

 

I understand your point entirely, I just don't think it's such a big deal that we be open about this. This is not a kangaroo court, and any comment about anyone is bound to solicit a fair amount of comment both supportive and critical. I love this forum, but what is written here is not really of much account to anyone but us.I think in these difficult times, it would be useful to open this discussion up.

 

I don't wat to comment any further, but am very interested on what the rest of you think. There are bound to be many aspects i haven't considered.

 

Anyone?

[Charles Papert]

One issue I see is that this is an international forum and the concerns and rates of operators in LA are different than those in Boise or Bruges or Bangladesh. Theoretically only operators from a given area will speak to their own but we know how this will likely go: those from elsewhere will chime in and there could be a lot of noise to weed through. Those who have been around here for a while, recall our English pal who insists that operators from LA are all overprivileged, overpaid whiners. Even within a market there are enough different voices to make this difficult: again, those used to a certain level of work may not be in touch with what's going on in the low budget world especially as things have largely changed since they were coming up.

 

I think that the idea is in theory a good one but I'm not convinced that this is the right arena or format to stage this in. I think it should be a closed-door, by invitation only forum to keep out the public eyeballs.

[Scott Jason Gill]

One issue I see is that this is an international forum and the concerns and rates of operators in LA are different than those in Boise or Bruges or Bangladesh. Theoretically only operators from a given area will speak to their own but we know how this will likely go: those from elsewhere will chime in and there could be a lot of noise to weed through. Those who have been around here for a while, recall our English pal who insists that operators from LA are all overprivileged, overpaid whiners. Even within a market there are enough different voices to make this difficult: again, those used to a certain level of work may not be in touch with what's going on in the low budget world especially as things have largely changed since they were coming up.

 

I think that the idea is in theory a good one but I'm not convinced that this is the right arena or format to stage this in. I think it should be a closed-door, by invitation only forum to keep out the public eyeballs.

 

Well said Charles. You guys know I'm a total newb here. Just a few days ago though, I had a call for a potential job. The client had found me on the SOA list. When he Googled me, a post from here where I was selling my sled due to "some financial hardship" popped up. I've since decided not to sell, but he was concerned that my financial problems indicated I was unreliable or not able to get Steadicam work. Its hard enough getting your first few jobs, especially when you are committed to not undercutting the experienced operators out there. I refuse to work at amateur rates and, as such, get a lot less jobs.

 

My point is, Google makes this site very public. One bad word about an operator, taken out of context by an un-steadicam-educated client could cost that op a job, even if the post is unwarranted. It already bothers me that anyone can read our tactics on rates or some of my newbie questions. Since that call, I've PM-ed a lot more of my questions just to specific operators for fear of someone using my lack of knowledge against me in rate negotiations. A private area for rates, tactics, and dirt laundry is a great idea.