new operators and craigslist: good idea or disaster waiting to happen

[Blair Phillips]

Are you guys RETARDED? Advertising "pro bono" work on craigslist, and you guys are actually seriously discussing this? Shame. Our industry is officially in the shitter thanks to this crap.

 

Blair, by advertising free (or super cheap) steadicam services you'd be screwing all of your fellow operators and making lots of enemies while you're at it. Do some proper research on this forum, read all the threads about rates and business practices. Craigslist is a for the most part, a big joke and it's no way to make a living. I once put a fake ad on craigslist for a cheap steadicam op and got like fifty replies, so keep in mind you've got alot of competition out there. Think twice about dumping your life savings into a rig. The industry right now is bursting at the seems with unemployed hacks and wannabes. My advice is to make sure you have something to fall back on because steadicam wont pay the rent for quite a while. Sorry to be the buzzkill, but it pisses me off to read this idiotic discussions. Happy flying!

 

I was wondering if anyone would say that. I do not see how I would be screwing my fellow operators though, since I am pretty sure the kind of productions operators make a living off do not even look at craigslist. I am using what contacts I have, which so far is slow.

 

And by 50 replies do you mean 50 steadicam ops telling you that you are selling them out or something?

 

Thank you for the unfiltered input! It is actually quite helpful.

[William Demeritt]

And by 50 replies do you mean 50 steadicam ops telling you that you are selling them out or something?

 

Thank you for the unfiltered input! It is actually quite helpful.

 

Read through Craigslist... lots of people reply to posts asking ridiculous rates with "Are you kidding me!?" Those are posted all the time. Now, imagine how many legit responses you'll get! Go give it a try, it's a strange blend of depressing and funny. "Of course I'll come fly Steadicam for 17 hours with no breaks for $250/day. I don't know you, I don't owe you anything, but you seem legit!"

[Christopher T. Paul- SOC]

This just off of Craig's list this morning... Thanks a lot Kyle, it was fun while it lasted.

 

Need Steadicam Op Owner? 199$ a day (Limited time only) (Union Square)

 

Date: 2010-10-13, 12:17AM EDT

Reply to: gigs-xpcak-2003473288@craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?]

 

199$ for a 8 hour day + Taxi + Food for short period.

 

I just moved into the city and for the next 2 weeks I am offering a certified steadicam operation at an unheard of price.

 

I have been a certified steadicam operator for 5 years. My work has been on MTV, College Humor.com and Indy Mogul. I own the steadicam Flyer which allows for camera up to 15LB. Also I can rent and operate larger steadicam rigs. I own a Sony Cannon 5D with a full range of fast Prime lenses.

 

Check out my reel, equipment, and resume at www.SmoothCamera.com

 

I constantly work out, run, and conduct healthy eating habits for lengthy steadicam operation.

 

it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests

Compensation: $199 plus Taxi Cost to location and contant food

[Alfeo Dixon SOC]

This just off of Craig's list this morning... Thanks a lot Kyle, it was fun while it lasted.

 

Need Steadicam Op Owner? 199$ a day (Limited time only) (Union Square)

 

Date: 2010-10-13, 12:17AM EDT

Reply to: gigs-xpcak-2003473288@craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?]

 

199$ for a 8 hour day + Taxi + Food for short period.

 

I just moved into the city and for the next 2 weeks I am offering a certified steadicam operation at an unheard of price.

 

I have been a certified steadicam operator for 5 years. My work has been on MTV, College Humor.com and Indy Mogul. I own the steadicam Flyer which allows for camera up to 15LB. Also I can rent and operate larger steadicam rigs. I own a Sony Cannon 5D with a full range of fast Prime lenses.

 

Check out my reel, equipment, and resume at www.SmoothCamera.com

 

I constantly work out, run, and conduct healthy eating habits for lengthy steadicam operation.

 

it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests

Compensation: $199 plus Taxi Cost to location and contant food

Now this is ridiculous... some of you New York guys may need to have a sit down with this guy and have a talking to! This kid has a reel, that would enable him to get work and is still whoring around, lowering rates like a cheap five dollar slut. Yes, I said it !

 

It's one thing when you need to build a reel or doing a favor for a friend (Yes... a friend, not just someone that calls and needs help, because they SOLD an idea to a label and can not deliver because THEY did not BUDGET properly).

 

 

-Alfeo "I gotta feed my FAMILY" Dixon

[RonBaldwin]

 

I constantly work out, run, and conduct healthy eating habits for lengthy steadicam operation.

 

 

This gives it away as bogus. No certified steadicam operator would live healthy, at least not for more than a few hours at a time.

[Blair Phillips]

This just off of Craig's list this morning... Thanks a lot Kyle, it was fun while it lasted.

 

Need Steadicam Op Owner? 199$ a day (Limited time only) (Union Square)

 

Date: 2010-10-13, 12:17AM EDT

Reply to: gigs-xpcak-2003473288@craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?]

 

199$ for a 8 hour day + Taxi + Food for short period.

 

I just moved into the city and for the next 2 weeks I am offering a certified steadicam operation at an unheard of price.

 

I have been a certified steadicam operator for 5 years. My work has been on MTV, College Humor.com and Indy Mogul. I own the steadicam Flyer which allows for camera up to 15LB. Also I can rent and operate larger steadicam rigs. I own a Sony Cannon 5D with a full range of fast Prime lenses.

 

Check out my reel, equipment, and resume at www.SmoothCamera.com

 

I constantly work out, run, and conduct healthy eating habits for lengthy steadicam operation.

 

it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests

Compensation: $199 plus Taxi Cost to location and contant food

The "sony Cannon 5D" peaks my suspicions that this is a fake ad.

[Tom Wills]

I doubt this is a fake ad. I've seen this guy's work. He doesn't seem like a bad operator either! It's just really sad to see someone in New York City, with a lot more gear than me, working for less than what my rig rents for, in Buffalo, NY.

 

Honestly, he'd probably be better off doing a few student gigs for free - at least that way he won't be ruining anybody's rates, and he won't be losing the respect of both his fellow operators, and whoever he works for. Those who pay $200 a day for operator+kit are the kind who generally expect the operator to work all day, hold frames like a human tripod, and then complain when it isn't perfect. And, at least if you work for free, you can then for later gigs actually charge for your work - but if you try to raise the rate for a client who you've been working for a real low amount, it's more easily seen as "trying to gouge/raise rates on us".

[Brian Freesh]

Just a few minutes on his website, and I have no trouble believe that is a real ad.

 

Honestly, he'd probably be better off doing a few student gigs for free - at least that way he won't be ruining anybody's rates

 

Other than their student rates?

[William Demeritt]

You guys in NYC should really extend a hand to him. I actually know Kyle from college, and I know he's a good guy. He just made the move to NYC permanently, he's probably just trying to work the Craigslist circuit to get some more footage (on his back, unfortunately).

 

He's also a member here.

[Tom Wills]

Other than their student rates?

 

Brian,

 

I don't think he (or anyone else) should be doing the kind of student gigs where there are "student rates" and budgets to support that for free, but there are a lot of student films out there that I'm sure couldn't pay for an operator at any rate, but that might be a good reel-footage source for a new operator. I should know - I work on plenty of films like that! That's a better solution than selling yourself short, is it not?

Edited October 13, 2010 by Tom Wills

[Brian Freesh]

I don't think he (or anyone else) should be doing the kind of student gigs where there are "student rates" and budgets to support that for free, but there are a lot of student films out there that I'm sure couldn't pay for an operator at any rate, but that might be a good reel-footage source for a new operator. I should know - I work on plenty of films like that! That's a better solution than selling yourself short, is it not?

 

 

Well that's just it, Kyle's not a new operator, he makes that very clear. There's no reason for him to do a student film for free any more than what he is offering in his ad.

 

I took a second look, and it is a "2-week" offer only, so if he sticks to that at least there's that. And if he shows what he's normally worth, etc... Honestly, the worst that is likely to come out of this (as presented) is that he never works again for the people that hire him for this ad, cause none of them will ever be willing to pay him or any other operator more than that. And what I mean is not that he will have devalued the rate, but that the clients that respond to that price never would have paid more than it to anyone anyway. It is CL after all. So while his intention is to gain new clients quickly with a heavily discounted rate (Keeping in mind he uses a Flyer, it is still heavily discounted) I doubt if he'll actually gain worthwhile clients that way.

 

Maybe I'm just an optimist.

 

Blair, we hijacked your thread. Hopefully this discussion is giving you a lot to chew on. Best of luck to you and Kyle both. You (and Kyle if he's reading) can see how quickly you can earn indignation from the crowd when you undervalue yourselves, and therefore everyone else.

[Sam Morgan Moore]

Coming from an editorial photographic background I work from the standpoint that the copyright to the footage is mine, it is my understanding that the same goes for video footage

 

So unless you sign something no-one else has the rights to use 'your' footage

 

I have done two indy films 'for free' - actually they gave me more money than my fuel to the gig cost

 

But I arranged with them a licence - ie the terms under which they can use the footage, and a clause where should they break even or make a profit Im on a split 10%, 5% as DOP ,5% for kit - I think

 

Now I never expect to get any money - because these projects will never make a profit

 

I got what I wanted, experience and clips for my reel - yep I DL the rushes to my hard drive at the location before the wrap

 

In the unlikely event that we have made a cult no budget hit like Blair Witch Im in for 10% of it

 

I think working for 'free' is fine

 

Being given $200 for fuel and a sandwhich on the way home is fine, it can show your non paying employer cares and appreciates you

 

Exchanging $200 for any 'for profit' use of the footage is an outrage

 

Working lo/no budget just robs from those who have kids to feed - learning does not

 

S

[Kyle Fasanella]

 

I constantly work out, run, and conduct healthy eating habits for lengthy steadicam operation.

 

 

This gives it away as bogus. No certified steadicam operator would live healthy, at least not for more than a few hours at a time.

 

 

Its true. I used to pride myself on my health. That post was one of my last ditch efforts before I had to consider selling more of my equipment. I just sold my sony Z1U, Red rock adapter, Lens, and zacuto gear just to pay my previous bills that were collecting intrest.

 

Recently the big company I worked for for the last 3 months decided not to pay me. It's 11 thousands dollars I was really counting on. Then thinking I was good with a 1k day rate shooting in Saks 5th ave for a company called dogmatic they disappear off the map.

 

I made a thread about the main company a while ago. If it was not for them I would like myself a lot more right now.

 

http://www.steadicamforum.com/index.php?showtopic=12363&st=0&p=57917entry57917

 

I am in desperate need of any kind of gigs. Its going to sound like a spam email.. I don't even want to admit most of this publicly but let me try to explain my situation. I was recently diagnosed with skin cancer again and I am hesitating to have the operation until I sell more gear or get a gig. Once I get the operation I wont be able to work again till it heals. Thus the urgency for gigs. I am still paying off the last operation. I am currently living on a couch in manhattan in exchange for maid services, cleaning dishes, vacuum, laundry, but I am only able to stay here till the 15th. So on top of that I am trying to get enough to get a place to live. I have been forcing myself to eat eggs and peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. Although occasionally the person I am staying with feels sorry for me and has bought me meals. I was planing on working with a company I have worked with here before but they just started working Red camera with attachments which is to heavy for my old flyer. The only work I have been able to pick up in the past 2 weeks was a gig I got monday for $300 dollars of spa certificates. I was hoping to sell them to put towards health insurance but they put my name on them and I am the only one who can use them.

 

I owe my father thousands from previous bills plus a student loan. Now I am used to ruffing it out when I was in college, but watching my 50 year old parents struggle because of me, is something I can't live with. My father also has suspicious moles but refuses to get them checked out until he gets ahead. I only got check out for cancerous moles the first time because my sister was diagnosed and operated on. My father has had for the last 4 years a failing hurricane shutter business. People only buy them when there are recent hurricanes. The last big ones were in 04...

 

I have been able to hold of for decent rates until I got the new lab results and started having anxiety attacks. All in all its been taking a heavy hit on my health.

 

I hate myself for posting such a rate but I am not sure what else to do. I don't want hand outs, I owe some many generous people already. But I do need work quickly. If you have any kind of work in the NY area today or tomorrow, even basic crew postions please contact me.

 

Thank you all. My apologies to everyone.

[Brian Freesh]

Hi Kyle,

 

Thanks for taking the time to share your side of the story, and for apologizing. What's happening to you sucks, no doubt about it, and I can't say I know what I would do in your situation. These are desperate times, and you're in a desperate situation. Your story seems very personal, I don't know that I would have said all that publicly myself, but I understand (though I cannot sympathize, having never been there) where you're coming from.

 

I can't begin to give you advice on what to do, nor is this the place for that. I can tell you only to keep moving forward, cause if you stop you definitely will not overcome your challenges.

 

As I and others on this thread have said, there are reasons to give discounted rates. I just want to expand that by saying there are the reasons you tell the client, and there are the real reasons. Sometimes those are the same. Maybe advertising a New-Client Special as a newbie to New York isn't a terrible idea, though I don't know that $200/8 even with a Flyer is high enough. Maybe it is a terrible idea, because you're horning in on the territory of others. What is definitely a good idea is to find other NY ops, be they Flyer-class ops, or Big rig Ops. Talk to them, they're you're greatest resource in the Steadicam world.

 

As I said before, best of luck to you you in your endeavors, keep pushing forward, try to keep positive, and you'll be fine.

[Brian Freesh]

Sam I agree in principal with everything you said, just want to put that out there. And yes, the footage belongs to you until you are compensated. Based on whatever deal you make. I recently discovered this, and though I did not have to play that card, it gave me the confidence to stand up to my employer who was trying to screw with me, and I ended up getting paid.

 

Kyle, maybe you can go after that company for not paying you, cause it's your footage? I dunno, you said they disappeared, but maybe there is something down that path.

 

Being given $200 for fuel and a sandwhich on the way home is fine, it can show your non paying employer cares and appreciates you

 

That's some expensive gas!