new operators and craigslist: good idea or disaster waiting to happen

[Sam Morgan Moore]

 

 

That's some expensive gas!

 

Well its england and I live in the sticks

 

my point I think is that $200 is not payment, it might cover your fuel, a pizza on the way home, some batteries before the shoot and if (as my stuff was for years but is no longer) you are paying leasing maybe the day cost of that too

 

S

[Kyle Fasanella]

Hi Kyle,

 

Thanks for taking the time to share your side of the story, and for apologizing. What's happening to you sucks, no doubt about it, and I can't say I know what I would do in your situation. These are desperate times, and you're in a desperate situation. Your story seems very personal, I don't know that I would have said all that publicly myself, but I understand (though I cannot sympathize, having never been there) where you're coming from.

 

I can't begin to give you advice on what to do, nor is this the place for that. I can tell you only to keep moving forward, cause if you stop you definitely will not overcome your challenges.

 

As I and others on this thread have said, there are reasons to give discounted rates. I just want to expand that by saying there are the reasons you tell the client, and there are the real reasons. Sometimes those are the same. Maybe advertising a New-Client Special as a newbie to New York isn't a terrible idea, though I don't know that $200/8 even with a Flyer is high enough. Maybe it is a terrible idea, because you're horning in on the territory of others. What is definitely a good idea is to find other NY ops, be they Flyer-class ops, or Big rig Ops. Talk to them, they're you're greatest resource in the Steadicam world.

 

 

Kyle, maybe you can go after that company for not paying you, cause it's your footage? I dunno, you said they disappeared, but maybe there is something down that path.

 

 

Thank you Brian,

 

I honestly still wish I didn't have to post all that but the anxiety attack I got from reading this thread forced my hand. I could not ignore knowledge that I hurt so many people here on this forum alone, that have helped me so much over the years, despite my situation. I not only felt terrible but had no relief from the heart attack like symptoms until I started receiving supportive personal messages from Chris, Sam and Tom.

 

After considering the options I have decided to try better ways to do this quick and not hurt myself and others in the the longrun. I sold my Marshal Monitor, and LED lights to get food, and a place till the end of the month. But I still have not made any movement in gigs here in NYC. Some of you may be happy to hear I turned down a gig last night that offered $175 total. I need it but just couldn't take it, after getting contact information to a possible future employer with decent rates from Ari Robbins. I have never in my life gotten such generosity from my "competition". I am now hoping other operators in NY or beyond can help me get even one day gig at a decent rate by the end of the month or beyond since I will surly still be paying off my dept. If someone doesn't do it solely to help me get closer to my operation I am hoping the prospect of a keeping one more low baller steadicam op off the streets will be enough. I am even willing to offer a 50% finders fee for decent rates. Although I might not make much, At least then I wont be hurting us all and myself in the long run.

 

So for the best I have been able to do is get the web sever to take down the pages the video was displayed on. I have tried contacting nearly everyone from the company and no one will return my calls. I would spend more time in pursuit of it but I am not sure if its my best use of my time when I can still steadicam. I am thinking after the operation I will have around 2-3 weeks to pursue it since I wont be able to operate my steadicam.

 

If anyone in NYC is willing to meet up. Please don't hesitate to call me

561-427-4033

 

thank you all

Edited October 15, 2010 by Kyle Fasanella

[Alfeo Dixon SOC]

Kyle,

 

Huge leaps to put yourself out there as such. But you've been around long enough to know how supportive this group can be and now how harsh we can can get when our market and livelyhoods are at stake.

 

Any organization cannot substain if the membership does not adhere to the practices and principles of the collective whole. Although this community is not really an organization, I'm guessing that 80% of us are members of the SOA, 50% are IATSE 600, 40% Steadicam Guild and maybe 20% are SOC. This being said, it is a duty to the members to help (when able) those members in need. 600 has a way for members just shy of qualifying hours to get dayplay work in order to qualify... I'm sure the SOC has some sort of member support also. Maybe this could be a way for you to return the favors that are now coming your way in helping to organize a better support network...

 

What I'm getting at Kyle, is that out of despireation and need, opportunities can rise to help the collective instead of harm the overall.

 

Maybe I shouldn't post minutes from having a double shot Cubano, but my post was how many others feel. If not than I myself felt that and still do.

 

I hope others will learn from your hardship also and do their best to not hurt an industry already under attach by the producers. The cost of rigs and the availablity of different makes and models has brought price points down and offerings of multiple styles for different types of work. But for the long run, WE must adhere to the way of the past IF there is to be a future in Steadicam. Already, it's a market that is flooded with new ops and gear availablity but the industry is still content hungry, there is enough work to support those that are in this industry and threat it as a business and not just a cool job or gig.

 

Work hard, be professional, respect your peers and learn from your mentors... Sound like something your parents would say, guess what... They did know a little something. I'm leanring that now that im now the parent.

 

Best of luck to you Kyle... And if enough people click the inappropriate content button, I think they will have to remove the ad. It's at least worth the try...

 

-Alfeo

[Dean Smollar]

Craigslist and I have had a tumultuous history. Here's what I've learned

 

1) DO NOT ADVERTISE YOURSELF ON CRAIGSLIST. People who are looking for Steadicam ops will post in the Crew Gigs section. The only thing you'll get from advertising a service is spam email.

 

2) Don't use craigslist if you're a big rig operator or are established and have a fixed rate. The kinds of people looking for ops on Craigslist are the kinds of people who can't afford $1k/day operators, so that's not what they're looking for. Which leads me to...

 

3) If you're going to apply to a Craigslist gig, you have to be willing to be flexible with your rate. For a guy like me, with an Archer-class rig, a low amount of loans to pay off, and a need to build a reputation in Los Angeles, it's a little bit easier to give discounts as long as I make enough to cover my month. Big rig players, you're not going to be able to do that with these people. My full budget rate is $500/day; I often get Craigslist gigs for $200/day or $300/weekend. Remember, the projects you're applying to usually don't have money (a lot of times they're students who don't understand how budgets work).

 

This is the most important one:

4) DON'T WORK ON A DISCOUNTED RATE FOR THE SAME GROUP MORE THAN ONCE. Here's what you do: hook them in with a great offer that they can afford, and give them a great product while you're working with them. Don't bitch about how much they're paying, but do let them know that you're giving them a big discount. Leave them thinking of you as a talented operator as opposed to a businessman. The ones who really understand will A) keep calling you and B) start paying you what you're really worth. If they don't, just move on to the next job search.

 

FINAL VERDICT: Craigslist can really help operators if they're willing/able to be more flexible with how much they're worth, especially in the current economic climate of the industry. All in all it's a pretty good springboard; you can build your skills, your contact list, and your reputation as a quality operator in the ultra low indie world.

 

This is really more for guys in the beginning stages of their career (like me) but I think it'd be interesting to see if it parallels in any way what the veterans of the board went through when they started out.

[Sydney Seeber]

 

This is the most important one:

4) DON'T WORK ON A DISCOUNTED RATE FOR THE SAME GROUP MORE THAN ONCE.

You have completely and totally ruined any chance of a career as a freelance ANYthing, let alone Steadicam guy, with that particular rule. $500/day means that all of your jobs fall into this category. Do you expect that you'll simply work for strangers the rest of your life, maybe one day someone will pay a real market rate? The entertainment business is very small. Everything depends on who you know. Marketing is important now more than it ever was. That kid who's student film you worked on may have really liked you or what you do. How do you know he won't have success down the road. Some of what you wrote kind of has a "Fuck that guy" feel to it as well. Do you not enjoy what you're doing? If so, do you not enjoy meeting new people, making friends and whatnot? Maybe work with them again down the road?

 

If you're working for $500/day, you're there to gain a little experience and meet people. That post just eliminated 50% of the reason you worked for a low rate.

[Brian Freesh]

Dean,

 

I admire your willingness to help, how much thought you've put into your craigs list dealings, and your willingness to publicly post your full rate. All things I feel not enough people are willing to do.

 

Your first 2 points are pretty on the money as far as I'm concerned, though I can easily rationalize why they should be generalizations, as opposed to absolutes.

 

Take it from someone who has made a fool of himself more than once on this forum... when you define yourself as just getting started, avoid making too many definite statements here. Your experience has led to certain conclusions, but you admit that experience is limited. In as little time as a month you may change your opinion on some things.

 

Such as your rate. On the assumption that includes both rate and equipment rental, I'd have to argue it is too low. That's just me, but I think you'll find that virtually everyone on this forum will agree.

 

I get where you're coming from and have likely done worse. I would like to talk to you more about this. Not just your rate, but the LA market as a whole and what it means to you and others. Since you're joining the local steadicam community, you might be interested in meeting a bunch of us. PM me if your interested.

 

In the mean time, I hope you continue to offer advice on this forum, and I will as well. If we're careful we can avoid being too wrong too often :)

[Nicholas Davidoff]

Dean,

 

It's a very bad idea to post rates publicly on this or any other forum. Especially when they are as low as your standards. It would be great for all of us if you would go back and edit your post and delete the rates you have put up. Many of us are fighting (very unsuccessfully) to maintain some integrity with respect to proper steadicam rates. Clueless jackasses left and right are buying toy rigs and selling themselves out for a few hundred bucks a day. This is damaging enough as it is, but posting crappy rates on public forums and especially advertising them on craigslist is really driving the final nails in the coffin. Please guys, you're turning steadicam and camera operating into a lame everyman's craft and it shouldn't be that and hopefully never will.

[Dean Smollar]

To Brian, Nick and Sydney,

 

First off, I appreciate the responses. I'm flattered that you think I'm worth more than what I posted. I assure you, I'm not one of those clueless jackasses who bought a toy rig. I take this very seriously, and I am trying to make it my full-time profession. I have a lot of pride in my rig and my abilities, and I would never deliberately do anything to demean the title of Steadicam operator. I've sunk myself into some serious debt between my college degree and the equipment because I knew that this was what I wanted to do.

 

I have had a terrible time finding well paying work in this market. I have made many connections, sure, but most of them rarely come through on a regular basis at this point in my career, and when they do, they can't afford to pay me what you all most likely make. I have to resort to websites like Mandy, Entertainmentcareers.net, Media Match, Production Notices, and even Craigslist to find enough work to live full time as a freelancer. If I could get paid what you guys say I should be selling myself for, then that would be wonderful. I'm really trying my hardest out here, working towards the day when I'm out of the micro budget indie world. In the meantime, what am I supposed to do other than what I've been doing?

 

I really don't mean to disrespect anyone on this forum. I'm hoping to meet as many ops as I can and make friends. I still have a lot to learn from guys like you.

 

I'd like to edit my post to delete some things (like the rates I posted), but I can't see the edit button. Help? :)