Stick together!!!!

[Douglas John Kropla]

Think about it for a second, almost anything you buy now is throw away quality, unless you are spending a lot of cash and want quality

Doug, you couldn't be more right!!! You just drove that nail all the way with one hit....

 

If a producer wants a "throw away shot," that may or may not lay on the editors hard drive floor... then they will seek out a less than $1000/day operator. But if they want to maximize their investment and make ever shot count, meaning the reason that shot didn't make the cut was due to the director not wanting to use it to tell his story... then they will spent the cash and they have it... believe me they do.

 

Subpar operator + think it will be a cool shot directors = $100/day + This isn't what I wanted results

Every shot counts + skilled op = above $1500/day + director that gets what he wanted

 

 

In terms of your gear... 100 day payoff is a good starting place. Basically 1% of your total investment per day.

 

Simple math brother

 

Hey Alfeo thanks, brother from another mother. I just had someone ask me to work for two days FOR FREE, geez louise, what a business!!! That sheep ranch is looking better and better:)

[Nicholas Davidoff]

That meeting is in the works with a few fellow operators, but you know how many PM's I got from my post? One... One single operator PM'd me who was interested in getting proactive. A gentleman who had just recently bought himself a Flyer. Process this information as you will.

 

I know the meeting you're referring to, but keep in mind, many of us have also had numerous meetings in the last 2 months.

 

Strange, I do recall having a PM conversation with you, but you wanted to keep the discussion online since our "circle" (which includes Brian and Jess) didn't include any "heavy hitters"? Meanwhile, I think we have over a dozen operators (some owners, some just operators) in frequent communication with each other, all quoting the same rates to the same producers, all sharing work when one of us is booked.

 

Maybe we're not doing EVERYTHING the "heavy hitters" do, but I'd say our tactics of frequent, open communication between fellow ops is serving us well.

 

I think Steadicam still is a small world, but the industry has grown significantly (vertically with bigger shows, and horizontally with more indie jobs). Our "small world" was bound to grow. Sure, our market is becoming saturated with overnight Steadicam owners, but in my opinion: what does that have to do with my business? My clients are happy with me, and I look forward to working with them again. The clients you want should know quality from garbage. If they just want the lowest bidder, then they'll get what they paid for.

 

Personally, I don't want to be the guy whose pissed off at everyone else for the way they run (or run down) their business. I want to be the guy clients want to go to because I've proven my worth. I'll stay competitive, but I still gotta bid jobs as what's right and fair. Too low? Don't take it. If they're pinching pennies for the bottom floor lowest bid, chances are they don't know what they're shopping for anyway.

 

I honestly think your cynicism is painting a VERY strong picture of you on the forums, one that may come back to haunt you. I haven't even met you yet, and I find myself battling a negative mental image of you. All the more reason why rates discussions, venting, frustrations, rants et al belong in person, over some libations and unhealthy food.

 

If you're frustrated, and believe me, we ALL are, give me/us a call. Let's go grab some wings and beers and talk this crap out. I got a list of over a dozen fellow ops who'd LOVE to commiserate over this!

 

Bill, you are correct, we did get in touch I think through regular email and I also got in touch with a couple other people on my own. So a more accurate number should probably be 2 or as many as 3 operators who got in touch with me from the post regarding a meeting. Considering the multiple hundred people who read the threads, I was really expecting a much higher number, so this was pretty disappointing. Indeed a small meeting was in the works and then got postponed and postponed again pending operators' availability including my own. I would love to get together with a bunch of ops and see if we could hash out some solutions to what's going on. Unfortunately (or fortunately) as of late I've been working quite a bit, mostly out of town and barely been in L.A. Throw in a newborn baby and I've got free time like CL has union gigs. Even now, I'm back in town for a bit and leave again in a week. Although I'm very thankful to be busy and working, I regret not having more time to commit to supporting our community right now. What I will do is send a few PM's to some interested parties with some ideas that I would bring to the meeting. So wether or not I'm there in person, I could still contributing something. I'll get in touch with some of you about it. But as far as forum discussions on these matters, I've stated my case and I'm really gonna stay out of them from now on.

 

And Bill, you mentioned a few meetings you recently put together. Did anything come of these meetings? Please share. Or PM me if it's private.

 

In regards to painting a negative picture of myself, yeah I guess that was expected. But I can assure you it's not who I am. I'm a polite and decent fellow who cracks jokes, gives nice gifts and helps elderly ladies cross the street. I never backstab or screw people over and i've always respected and supported my fellow craftspeople. I've had nothing but great reviews on every job I've worked so far and I'd love to know if anyone has heard otherwise. But yes, sometimes I speak my mind, direct and unfiltered. And a few people respect me for that.

 

I decided to share some of my not so positive views because I know that many other ops I've talked to share the same frustrations. I probably could have framed things in a softer way, but I bet that would lessen the impact. I put it out there as some fodder for thought and discussion. I believe these views may have been very helpful to some people new to the industry to present a more realistic and complete overall picture. I think you may be doing some people a great dis-service by misleading them into thinking that steadicam is for everybody and encouraging whoever to buy a rig and "get into it" and "welcome aboard". Some of these people may end up losing much valuable time and money because of unrealistic expectations. There's so much positive support here which is a wonderful and beautiful thing, but it's an incomplete picture. I thought hey, somebody should play the prick for a minute and throw in a bit of stark reality. I'm sorry if I don't pop a boner every time somebody announces "Hey I just moved here and I'm looking for work" or "I just got a rig and I'm putting up a craigslist ad". I know of way too many talented, unemployed veteran operators out there. That's where I'm coming from. And I'm glad I put this out there and I hope that some good comes of it when all is said and done. I sincerely apologize to anyone whom I offended or disappointed. I'll shut up now. Happy flying guys and gals!

[James Puli]

A bit of a different spin on it here. Its not just us either, its other departments as well.

 

I have a gaffer mate who was asked (by a person he'd never met or herd of before) to come and do a no budget shoot with the truck full of gear etc.

 

After the ensuing conversation he said to the producer :

 

Gaffer : "Ok. I'll do the job, if your dad comes out and works as my best boy".

Producer "My dad cant do that!"

Gaffer "If your dad wont even work on your film, then why the F##k should I!"

 

Stick together guys!

 

Theres only a few of us here in Australia (compared to LA) which is good, because we all know the rates, what producers will try and get away with etc and we know what each other is up to which helps keep track of who is doing the $100 jobs or who is undercutting everyone else etc. I got offered $500 for a 5 day steadicam shoot (inc. gear) a few weeks ago ... they wanted to do 1x15 minute shot each day, in the middle of nowhere in the country. Politely told the producer that I was re-aranging my sock drawer those dates. In the end, I found out they got an Easyrig!

 

JP

Edited October 27, 2010 by James Puli

[Alfeo Dixon SOC]

Hey Alfeo thanks, brother from another mother. I just had someone ask me to work for two days FOR FREE, geez louise, what a business!!! That sheep ranch is looking better and better:)

Ok... there is one way to handle those also... counter offer them something ridiculous also. If you have desires to direct, produce or even dp... thats the time to ask for it. Tell them you'll make a decision after you read the script, then IF and only if you like it and want to be attached, tell them you want to ____________ and ________ in exchange for you to work the steadicam days.

 

If you do the producer route, get a contract done up and YOUR financial input to the project is FULL RATE (ie 2 days @ $2,500/day for 12) and you are paid when the Financiers are paid and you are also given an EP credit. If your goal is to direct, then ask to direct second unit or a scene in the movie... same with DPing... ask for it! But try to make sure you get what your looking for out of it first.

 

Don't do the steadicam days before they give you your what ever in writing. The best approach is to tell them you hope they are not the type of people to renege on a deal, but you would like to put your involvement into the project right away so that you can best serve the project when steadicam is up.... blah, blah, blah. If they go south with the deal, you have it on paper and the footage you shot still belongs to you due to copyrights and them not completing the terms of the agreement.

 

more than one way to skin a cat!

 

-Alfeo

[Kevin Andrews SOC]

I think Nick brings up some real points. It's not all glossy.

 

But at the same time, Nick your reel is sweet, I don't think you'll get undercut too much at your level. Unless Producers really will hire just anyone these days?

[Nicholas Davidoff]

I think Nick brings up some real points. It's not all glossy.

 

But at the same time, Nick your reel is sweet, I don't think you'll get undercut too much at your level. Unless Producers really will hire just anyone these days?

 

Thanks for the support Kevin. And yes, I've seen first hand some low budget producers' hiring criteria these days and you would be shocked.

[Osvaldo Silvera SOC]

Interesting read. I will sometimes get called and told about a project, the PM or Producer will go on describing it in detail, very excited. At some point, I'll be asked if I'm available for cetain dates, if I am I'll say yes, and usually they'll continue describing the awesome, fun project.( insert... "It's Festival Bound", or "written by someone who's thrid cousin WATCHED an Oscar nominated movie", etc..). When they say it will be great working together I ask.. "What's the rate?", if it's too low, whether standard operating, or steadicam, I'll politely say..."Woah,that's lower thn my rate,I'm sorry I wouldn't be able to do it for that rate, but would you like me to suggest some other ops who have just started in the business who I'm sure woud love to work with you"... Sometimes I get a yes, and I pass along some names of newer operators or AC's who I know have the chops to get their start, sometimes, they get insulted and say "no that's ok thanks. But at least I try to get someone work, even if it's not me.

 

The sticking together idea only works when your comparing apples to apples. So many things differ from one op to another. One op may have invested in a Hard Mount, a 2 channel or 3 channel lens control system, low mode brackets, etc.. needed for the job, so rates would be different. Sometimes drastically.

 

One clever way would be to accept the low ball offer but inform them your rig is just that... a rig. and You can get them a great rate on any of the accesories they may need for the job..Say you have just 2 batteries, need extras, $10 each/day, do they have insurance? you can provide it for the gear(only if you have your own). $100/day, Wireless Follow Focus $100/day, Iris, another 100, etc..

I also like the idea mentioned earlier of reading the script and then accepting or declining based on what you think... Also ask to see a shot list, etc.. this will tell you if a 300/day job will be 8 hours of stairs, Always ask for a safety grip, ( tell them it's to protect their film from seizure incase of a liability situation. Communicate, Communicate Communicate.

 

The online sites are not always scams or all bad..I once found a job on Mandy.com, it was asking for a Steadicam Op with gear and the job was on film. I inquired and they asked for a reel, I mailed it to them (many years ago) They called me and told me that they were spending all their money on the equipment and it was a music video, they needed 4 days. I asked what are you shooting on?... here comes the deciding factor. They tell me "35mm Anamorphic", I was floored, I asked to see a shot list, they faxed it to me that day, it was so detailed, I was very very impressed. I told them I live in Miami but would be happy to work with them if they flew me to New york and put me up. They agreed but only had fly money, no hotel money. I went, worked the 4 days, Slept on their futton, they fed me like a king, shuttled me everywhere and I came home. 1 week later I had a Digibeta of the raw footage and the finished music video...... 3 months later they called me saying they wanted to do the same thing, but it was 3 days long and they had flight, insurance, hotel and 2000 for the 3 days....I did it, They grew as a company and got better clients and kept hiring me, flying me up each time and each time the pay was higher, until our schedules didn't match on several jobs and they found someone else, But it goes to show, there are good apples in the online adds... Now if it happened today and they were shooting on a Sony vx2000.... that would be a different story. Shooting on a big format requires a level of dedication to the organization of everything that's to be captured or recorded....enough ranting,

Practice practice practice, you'll all get there, don't give up, it's a beautiful craft, nailing a shot always feels great.

[Kyle Fasanella]

A few of you know my story and current situation. And even I turned down the $100 a day gig. I even had to a tell a person friend shooting this Sat that I could shoot for $200 one day for 8 hours or less. (he wanted two days) but if a normal rate gig comes along on the same day, even the night before, I can't afford to not to take it. He sent an email saying he will not need me and he got a free steadicam rental. (found out from other friend that its just a glidecam) But he has not returned my phone calls since. Although I did take one $200 gig in early November and was able to stop eating nothing but pasta, eggs, and PB&J. :-) On top of that one of the companies that was screwing me sent me a check for work I did in April! Took some time and pro bono legal action (thank you Billy Green for the reference) They own me for about 7 more months and seemed to forget about the expenses work I did in march. Either way its been enough to look for getting my medical work done :-)

Still not in an easy situation, and I might not see the majority of what they still owe me, it seems that the owner of this company so rich, the IRS puts him in a bracket that is cheaper for him to choose a company to bankrupt than it is to pay the taxes. I did some research and he used to have a production company in Vegas that went bankrupt...... with the same president...

 

I really like the idea of self made unions for different levels of operators, Or some sort of level based citification. How can I help? Before I am on eggs and pasta again! :- )

[William Demeritt]

I really like the idea of self made unions for different levels of operators, Or some sort of level based citification. How can I help? Before I am on eggs and pasta again! :- )

 

I'm working tomorrow, but give me a call sometime tomorrow night. I'd like to talk to you about some exciting goings-on with your LA brethren! Glad to hear things are looking up, brotha! Here's to not looking back at FL.

[Blair Phillips]

 

I really like the idea of self made unions for different levels of operators, Or some sort of level based citification. How can I help? Before I am on eggs and pasta again! :- )

 

here is something that really perks my curiosity. Right now I have a Flyer LE and a bartech on order. My equipment is almost nothing compared to many of you guys and gals, my experience is even less. Quite simply it is absurd for me to ask 1000 a day, should I be worried about putting downward pressure on market value?

 

If guys like me are taking 150 a day for rental on no-budgets while working as on 2nd AC on shows with budgets, it seems like apples and oranges. If I am out to lunch please say so.

[Sydney Seeber]

If I am out to lunch please say so.

you are not out to lunch. If you're an AC you know how vast a difference there is between a partial and complete kit, as in the ability to control focus vs. the ability to control focus/iris/zoom, etc. etc. etc.

[Mark Schlicher]

In my opinion you shouldn't take less than $500-$700 a day on a typical Flyer gig if you have a reasonable skill level and at least some experience. ($200-300 for you, $300-400 for your kit rental). My "card" rate is higher than that, and discounts are only sparingly considered for jobs or clients that have some extra appeal or benefit to me.

 

No, you're not competing with $1500+ big rig ops, but at $150 you'd be working for PA rates! and you're not only undercutting a reasonable rate for a Flyer, but you're undercutting basic video camera operator rates (which in my market range roughly $300-500 for non-union).

 

Put another way, you'd be working for $15 an hour and giving away your kit rental. Not good!

 

Or another way, let's say you bought your rig and related bits used for a smokin deal of $5000. At $150 a day you will have to book 33 jobs to pay off the rig...but you will have worked for free for nearly a month and a half in the meantime. Reminds me of the old joke about the local car commercial: "We lose money on every deal but we make it up in volume!!"

 

 

So, if "guys like you" are taking $150 a day gigs, they may not be undercutting big rig jobs, but they are undercutting Flyer jobs, heck, they are undercutting Glidecam jobs!

 

My tuppence...

 

 

I really like the idea of self made unions for different levels of operators, Or some sort of level based citification. How can I help? Before I am on eggs and pasta again! :- )

 

here is something that really perks my curiosity. Right now I have a Flyer LE and a bartech on order. My equipment is almost nothing compared to many of you guys and gals, my experience is even less. Quite simply it is absurd for me to ask 1000 a day, should I be worried about putting downward pressure on market value?

 

If guys like me are taking 150 a day for rental on no-budgets while working as on 2nd AC on shows with budgets, it seems like apples and oranges. If I am out to lunch please say so.

[Sydney Seeber]

to clarify, I was referring to just the Flyer rental, not the overall pay for a job. I was surprised to find out that $150 is a legitimate rental per day for the Flyer, as per other posts. In my ENG days, $450/day was pretty typical, and I didn't bring any gear.