Stick together!!!!

[Nicholas Davidoff]

Perhaps you're right Brian. Maybe I've been a whiny jerk lately. It's tough when you watch this craft you love and respect just kind of de-evolve. At least on the lower spectrum. Thanks to low baller productions and too many underqualified people jumping into the business. And I'm sure this trickles up somehow. I didn't see anything changing by being positive. I'm merely pointing out a few things that suck about our industry. I'm also trying to shed a little light on the reality of things. I see few people doing that around here. Keeping things sugar coated and friendly and happy can also be damaging on the flipside. You've met me in person. I'm a super nice and positive dude. But sometimes I speak my mind.

 

But like I said, I'll try to keep myself out of these discussions from now on, unless I have something positive to share. But I'm glad I've inspired some response and maybe a little discussion, maybe that's positive?

 

In regards to the $100/day producers, that was the first time I wrote such a harsh letter. I was just curious what the response would be. It was fun to read. Maybe next time I'll tone it down just a bit, but I will definitely continue to educate lowballer and beginner level producers about the true value of what we're worth and what we do. And I'll try to keep it positive somehow.

[Rob Vuona SOC]

Nick,

Frustration brings out the worst in us sometime, no worries brother.

But for the record, I have said it before and others on the forum will confirm, in your statement

 

"What I've discovered lately is that there is no community here. Nobody is "sticking together". Maybe it used to be this way but not today"

 

May be true in your circles or in these low budget features and student projects, but in the TV and Live TV circles, from LA to NY we all talk, refer each other and discuss rate and we all stick together on it.

If a production calls and they say a sub par rate as a quote, I graciously decline and tell them that I understand budgets are budgets but unfortunately I am already booked and will happily give them some names of other operators that may be available. After 5 or 6 calls to other operators they realize it's not going to happen in our circles and they usually call back with a renegotiated rate and miraculously my schedule clears up for their production.

 

Just my 2 cents

 

Chin up Fly Safe!

[Douglas John Kropla]

My two cents...

 

There has been and always will be someone who will do it cheaper. That goes for any industry. This next comment will upset a few people but here goes...

I think the days of asking for a lot of money for almost any skilled job are very quickly coming to an end and that includes this profession. Just find someone who use to work at Haines or any other textile plant in the US. All those jobs are now being done by slave labour in China, Vietnam, Taiwan etc. As long as the big players ie; Tiffen, Glidecam and the rest continue to make low end high quality gear and the cameras keep getting smaller, cheaper and higher quality this trend will continue. I truly feel sorry for you guys who have hundreds of thousands of dollars invested in gear. I think you will see your pie cut smaller and smaller and though you have years in and a list of credits a mile long it all eventually comes down to money. With the globalization of companies, unions don't have the power they once had. I see this happening in more than just this profession. These are just my outsider observations of an industry that I have just stuck my toe in to test the waters. It would be great to think that things will go back to the way they were, pre-digital era, but you can't put the genie back in the bottle, so to speak.

I think the term I should use is paradigm shift. Think about it for a second, almost anything you buy now is throw away quality, unless you are spending a lot of cash and want quality, but for most of us it is throw away, whether it's a TV a toaster or a vacuum. Film production is going through the same process of "it's good enough". Why shoot film when the REDONE is good enough. Why shoot REDONE when the 5D is good enough. So, what to do? Move to Montana and raise sheep, maybe? Sticking together is a great sentiment and if you are lucky enough to be part of a group of ops that are doing that, great, I applaud you. Good work, keep it up. But for the people out there who are not part of that group, well, are you going to tell them don't take that job... what's that... you have to pay rent buy food... well too bad, don't do it, starve, live on the street.

 

like I said just my two cents. It's not a matter of IF, it's a matter of WHEN.

[Rob Vuona SOC]

Geeze Doug . . . . . . , thanks Buzz kill . . . . . .LOL . . . .

 

Thanks God I have a house in Montana . . . .

8-)

[Sydney Seeber]

My two cents...

an inaccurate and unrealistic point of view

 

My

.0075 BHD

[Tom Daigon]

Let me draw an interesting parallel to the editorial world. Just 3 years ago I worked for a very successful video boutique that was charging $350 an hour for the Avid DS suite I operated for 9 years. There was no shortage of big money clients (casinos here in Vegas and regionally). Then about a year and a half ago things changed. Economic factors that had affected the rest of the country started to affect the facility. Suddenly clients were telling the owners what they could afford to pay. Since everybody and their dog owns Final Cut Pro many clients decided to go "in house" to save their dwindling resources. The facility owners were forced to do projects at a fraction above cost to prevent long time big clients from going elsewhere to work. This trend continues. What is being experienced by some members on this forum is pretty widespread in the industry. Money is tight, budgets are down, people are scared and some are desperate. A fine editor I know worked on soaps ( Y & R) for years. He won a daytime Emmy for his work. He cant understand why after being laid off a month ago he still cant find work in his field.

[Douglas John Kropla]

Geeze Doug . . . . . . , thanks Buzz kill . . . . . .LOL . . . .

 

Thank God I have a house in Montana . . . .

8-)

 

I guess as canuck I would move to Alberta and raise MC beef, or ostrich, I hear it tastes like chicken:)

I know I'm a buzz kill. Maybe I'm totally wrong about this. I know there will always be people who know and want quality and pay accordingly but they will be fewer and fewer. Maybe everything we know is wrong and one day smoking will be found out to be good for us, I love the movie "Sleeper" by Woody Allen. Tom's friend knows first hand what is happening.

 

But let's not argue and fight about it, let us embrace the future my brothers from other mothers, let us join together and create a global organization the likes of which has not been seen since.... well I don't when but it will be huge none the less, I'm talking Johnny the WAD huge... And we shall call it....? I don't know, IATSE?;)

Edited October 25, 2010 by Douglas John Kropla

[Dean Smollar]

 

HA HA!!! Stick together... What a concept...

 

I think one lesson learned here is at these modern day rates, who could possibly make any money as a steadicam operator? Your investment will never pay off. You've gotta be an idiot to dump $50K+ into a rig so you can work for $100 a day. The market is dead. Get out while you can!!!

 

In the meantime, if you want to fight these ridiculous Craigslist posts you should immediately FLAG, FLAG, FLAG them!

 

Or perhaps send them a friendly letter explaining why their offer may be a bit below industry standards. For example, here's the nice, personal email I sent to this particular feature film production:

 

"F@#% you and your oscar and your actor and your piece of s#*% movie and your ridiculous $100 a day for steadicam."

 

Warm regards,

 

~ Nick Davidoff

 

I saw the most amazing rebuttal post on Craigslist last night, and flagged for Best Of status. It was so brilliant it had to have been a joke post, so I saved it:

 

Hello,

 

I need a steadicam operator for 3 days that comes with their own rig. We're shooting on a RED ONE. In Lieu of pay I will let you take any 3 items from my recently deceased grandmother's house. She was pretty loaded and there's lots of good stuff left. If you want we can do a production meeting there so you can see if there's stuff you're interested in before committing to the job.

[Jess Haas SOC]

One thing that I have noticed is that most of the people looking for crew on craigslist have no idea what the gear costs or what a real rate is. Most of them seem to think that $350/day would be a lot of money to pay anyone even if they bring their own gear because frankly they have no clue. The responses they get from people on craigslist only reinforce their beliefs. The majority of them are from people with some sort of cheapo glidecam(or worse) or a pilot who decided a week ago they want to be a steadicam operator and would not think twice about doing a job for $100 for the experience. The result is that when they ask people to send in their rates most of them end up in the 300ish range(or less), a couple around $600 and then maybe one guy quotes them something closer to a real rate. If you had no clue what would your response be? Well most people seem to think the going rate is in the 300ish range, the 600ish guys must have a lot of experience and that guy quoting $2000 must be an nut job. Of course the truth of the matter is that he is probably one of the few people who responded who has a real package and any experience to go with it.

 

So in response to all of this the "producer" who posted on craigslist decides that the guys who responded saying they would do it for $100 probably can't handle the job but he will be a little cheap and go with the guy who quoted $250 because he is probably good enough and because many producers think their main priority should be to save money.

 

Now imagine an alternative universe where the producer gets the same number of responses quoting $300ish and less but instead of one guy quoting a real rate there are just as many as who quoted low. How do you think the producer will react to this? Instead of thinking the guy who quoted $2000 was a nut job he may realize that he is simply more experienced and has better gear and this will help him to put the guys who quoted lower rates into perspective. Since he is posting on craigslist his production most likely can't afford a real rate so he may decide to go with a less experienced operator but he will realize that the guys who are willing to do it for $300 aren't going to be the cream of the crop and may decide that instead of getting the steadicam operator for two days like they wanted he would be better off spending a little more money on one day with one of the guys who will do it for $600. He knows that this still isn't going to be the most experienced guy with the best gear but like in the previous situation he decides to take the middle ground and save a little more money only this time the middle ground pays significantly more. Or maybe that producer decides that they love the work of one of the more experienced operators and would really like to work with them so they contact them and while they can't pay the operators full rate they really sell the operator on the project and they come to some sort of agreement on a middle ground.

 

You could just discount this as a fantasy but I have gotten jobs through craigslist and similar avenues by quoting a full rate. No they weren't able to pay me that rate but they did end up paying me significantly more than what a number of other people quoted and they chose me specifically because they didn't trust the people who were quoting really low rates.

 

So if you want to be proactive instead of spending time ranting about the low rates on craigslist or furiously flagging everything maybe you could spend some time responding to ads with real rates so that those posting get a better perspective on what a real rate is. Personally I feel that simply applying for the job and quoting a real rate is more constructive than sending them an email telling them what a real rate is and berating them for not offering it.

 

~Jess

[Nicholas Davidoff]

A great discussion this has turned into. I'm glad I stirred some of this up. Jess brings up some good points as does everyone else. Rob, I'm glad to hear there is some level of camaraderie in your corner of the industry. I haven't really been feeling it in the low-mid budget feature world lately, but it would be great if it came our way.

 

Jess, 99% of the time I'm the super friendliest guy on earth. I've booked several jobs on craigslist as well, in the nicest manner, and yes, I've managed to up the rates a bit, but not by much. And those numbers still continue to decline. What used to be $500-ish has become $300-ish and sliding. Next stop? I don't wanna think about it. I still strongly believe that every time someone publicly posts a horrible rate like that, it damages our industry and those people should be "enlightened" at the very least. When I saw that post and that freakish offer, I just couldn't help myself, I had to nip it in the bud. Ironically, it looks like they took my advice. They reposted on CL, this time requesting rate quotes. Bravo! Too bad I can't apply, damn!

 

And Brian, as far as coming across as a jerk, you might have me there. But "whining" I would have to disagree with. I'm presenting some views and opinions from my perspective. Maybe they're not pleasant to hear, but I can guarantee you from personal experience that many other operators feel the same way. I just went so far as to speak up about it at the risk of sounding like a jerk. And I'm glad it's stirring up some juicy discussions. A while back I posted about organizing a meeting regarding constructive solutions to the rate crisis. Sounded like a good idea. That meeting is in the works with a few fellow operators, but you know how many PM's I got from my post? One... One single operator PM'd me who was interested in getting proactive. A gentleman who had just recently bought himself a Flyer. Process these statistics as you wish.

 

But with my newfound positive attitude, what I've opened my eyes to after reading some of your opinions is that you just gotta go with the flow man. There's probably little to be done to "change things". Our industry is what it is and it's changing and you gotta change with it. It seems that now, more than ever, our business is highly competitive. With so many operators competing for fewer jobs, this means that only the brightest and most dedicated have any chance of making a living. It's tougher than ever to become an operator, steadicam or otherwise. It should probably make us all work harder and strive for greater excellence in our craft. Several years ago steadicam was a much smaller field. Everyone knew eachother and they all could easily network and "stick together". But today, for the most part, it's becoming more of a cut-throat, survival of the fittest industry. I've witnessed it first hand in the real world. And it's sad that not all of us are gonna get a piece of the pie. But maybe it's not necessarily a bad thing. Competition brings out the best in people so may the very best shine through, I guess. Speaking of which, I better strap on the rig and get back to my line exercises...

[Scott Coleman]

Well Put BJ.....Very Well put.

 

Couldnt agree more about working AFI films

[William Demeritt]

That meeting is in the works with a few fellow operators, but you know how many PM's I got from my post? One... One single operator PM'd me who was interested in getting proactive. A gentleman who had just recently bought himself a Flyer. Process this information as you will.

 

I know the meeting you're referring to, but keep in mind, many of us have also had numerous meetings in the last 2 months.

 

Strange, I do recall having a PM conversation with you, but you wanted to keep the discussion online since our "circle" (which includes Brian and Jess) didn't include any "heavy hitters"? Meanwhile, I think we have over a dozen operators (some owners, some just operators) in frequent communication with each other, all quoting the same rates to the same producers, all sharing work when one of us is booked.

 

Maybe we're not doing EVERYTHING the "heavy hitters" do, but I'd say our tactics of frequent, open communication between fellow ops is serving us well.

 

I think Steadicam still is a small world, but the industry has grown significantly (vertically with bigger shows, and horizontally with more indie jobs). Our "small world" was bound to grow. Sure, our market is becoming saturated with overnight Steadicam owners, but in my opinion: what does that have to do with my business? My clients are happy with me, and I look forward to working with them again. The clients you want should know quality from garbage. If they just want the lowest bidder, then they'll get what they paid for.

 

Personally, I don't want to be the guy whose pissed off at everyone else for the way they run (or run down) their business. I want to be the guy clients want to go to because I've proven my worth. I'll stay competitive, but I still gotta bid jobs as what's right and fair. Too low? Don't take it. If they're pinching pennies for the bottom floor lowest bid, chances are they don't know what they're shopping for anyway.

 

I honestly think your cynicism is painting a VERY strong picture of you on the forums, one that may come back to haunt you. I haven't even met you yet, and I find myself battling a negative mental image of you. All the more reason why rates discussions, venting, frustrations, rants et al belong in person, over some libations and unhealthy food.

 

If you're frustrated, and believe me, we ALL are, give me/us a call. Let's go grab some wings and beers and talk this crap out. I got a list of over a dozen fellow ops who'd LOVE to commiserate over this!

[Jess Haas SOC]

How about Thursday night? Ive been spending way too much time in my cave (been in the garage fixing up my rig).

 

~Jess

[Douglas John Kropla]

A great discussion this has turned into. I'm glad I stirred some of this up. Jess brings up some good points as does everyone else. Rob, I'm glad to hear there is some level of camaraderie in your corner of the industry. I haven't really been feeling it in the low-mid budget feature world lately, but it would be great if it came our way.

 

Jess, 99% of the time I'm the super friendliest guy on earth. I've booked several jobs on craigslist as well, in the nicest manner, and yes, I've managed to up the rates a bit, but not by much. And those numbers still continue to decline. What used to be $500-ish has become $300-ish and sliding. Next stop? I don't wanna think about it. I still strongly believe that every time someone publicly posts a horrible rate like that, it damages our industry and those people should be "enlightened" at the very least. When I saw that post and that freakish offer, I just couldn't help myself, I had to nip it in the bud. Ironically, it looks like they took my advice. They reposted on CL, this time requesting rate quotes. Bravo! Too bad I can't apply, damn!

 

And Brian, as far as coming across as a jerk, you might have me there. But "whining" I would have to disagree with. I'm presenting some views and opinions from my perspective. Maybe they're not pleasant to hear, but I can guarantee you from personal experience that many other operators feel the same way. I just went so far as to speak up about it at the risk of sounding like a jerk. And I'm glad it's stirring up some juicy discussions. A while back I posted about organizing a meeting regarding constructive solutions to the rate crisis. Sounded like a good idea. That meeting is in the works with a few fellow operators, but you know how many PM's I got from my post? One... One single operator PM'd me who was interested in getting proactive. A gentleman who had just recently bought himself a Flyer. Process these statistics as you wish.

 

But with my newfound positive attitude, what I've opened my eyes to after reading some of your opinions is that you just gotta go with the flow man. There's probably little to be done to "change things". Our industry is what it is and it's changing and you gotta change with it. It seems that now, more than ever, our business is highly competitive. With so many operators competing for fewer jobs, this means that only the brightest and most dedicated have any chance of making a living. It's tougher than ever to become an operator, steadicam or otherwise. It should probably make us all work harder and strive for greater excellence in our craft. Several years ago steadicam was a much smaller field. Everyone knew eachother and they all could easily network and "stick together". But today, for the most part, it's becoming more of a cut-throat, survival of the fittest industry. I've witnessed it first hand in the real world. And it's sad that not all of us are gonna get a piece of the pie. But maybe it's not necessarily a bad thing. Competition brings out the best in people so may the very best shine through, I guess. Speaking of which, I better strap on the rig and get back to my line exercises...

 

Hey Nick,

as one of those new guys I can only say that I have turned down jobs that I felt I was not qualified to do. I also am trying to find my place in this industry with out running the rates down. But if someone could maybe give a guideline as to what a new guy like me should charge? I can't go out and ask for the same rate as an op with 200g's into his rig, that would be ridiculous and embarrasing. So how does one decide what he is worth in this market? As for sticking together... I love the idea.

 

Just a note to say that here in Montreal there is a guy who has a fairly pro level rig, no bells or whistles ie; remote FF remote video and such, I have met and worked with him, nice guy, but he works for FREE! I even went so far as to hook him up with a paying gig I had to pass on because my Flyer was not up to it, and he turned it down because he was working for free on another shoot! An $1800 gig! So I know that when I bid on a job at say $600.00 to $1000.00 a day and I don't get it, I know probably where the client has gone. As I said, nice guy but...

 

So to sum up, how to fix a rate for a certain level of OP?

Otherwise I guess I have to move to Montana, with Rob V and raise sheep:)

[Alfeo Dixon SOC]

Think about it for a second, almost anything you buy now is throw away quality, unless you are spending a lot of cash and want quality

Doug, you couldn't be more right!!! You just drove that nail all the way with one hit....

 

If a producer wants a "throw away shot," that may or may not lay on the editors hard drive floor... then they will seek out a less than $1000/day operator. But if they want to maximize their investment and make ever shot count, meaning the reason that shot didn't make the cut was due to the director not wanting to use it to tell his story... then they will spent the cash and they have it... believe me they do.

 

Subpar operator + think it will be a cool shot directors = $100/day + This isn't what I wanted results

Every shot counts + skilled op = above $1500/day + director that gets what he wanted

 

 

In terms of your gear... 100 day payoff is a good starting place. Basically 1% of your total investment per day.

 

Simple math brother