Awesome Klassen Upgrade

[geoff shotz]

ben- let me top your picture by telling you about shooting at a japanese girls boarding school on this movie i'm on. well, 50cent comes out in the open and 250-300 girls appear, each with a camera around their neck and struggling for an autograph or picture. scared the hell out of me. sure was a scene though. thankfully, i don't have yellow fever. really threw one of my a.c.s though.

 

geoff

[Thomas English]

No worries Ben... I do regret passing that to you as I had to film a horse all day and the bloody git bit me!

 

I had the same problem as you Ben with the tingle and the Klassen. I rang Don Klassen up and he recomended me the following.

 

On the back of your vest you can adjust your arm up or down. Don t have it at the mid point, either have it at the top or bottom. I have not looked back and never get the tingle now!

 

Experiment with where you can get away with having that arm.

[Erwin Landau]

Ops, I posted that in general Discussion under Transport/waiting...

 

We should really try and keep the discussions in the right topic...

 

So here again: (Sorry!)

 

 

I own a Klassen Harness for a while now, I belive 4 years. Everything was just dandy until I lost close to 20 Lbs and had to do a Video style interview segment that ended beeing 30 minutes long. January this year I blieve... way to start a new year!

 

It was supposed to be movement, like a flowty feel of a 3rd person watching what is happening with stuff in the forground... shot like "24". But as they started to light i got so boxed in that I ended up not moving much and finally could not move at all.

 

After 30 minutes of pushing down the rig and flowting around I started to feel a tingle in my left leg... Okay we know that one but I thought it was fine. The director yells cut, I turn right to make a step towards my stand that was sitting in the corner, I step on my right foot, fine. I take the first step with my left foot... I don't have a Left leg... I just step into thin air... the first thing to hit the ground was my Battery system... the second was my not existing (I couldn't feel a thing) left knee... the third was the Camera, lens first bracking the Mattbox into 2 parts... The Gaffer and a grip caught the rest of me midair...

 

Okay that was embarassing... but I could not get up for a whole 15 minutes... I could not get my left leg to do anything. Finally I start to get some feeling into my leg at least enough to get up.

 

Stupid as I was I say I'm fine but would like to have an Apple box to sit on I get back on set still not all my feelings back in my leg I sit down... 10 minutes into the next segment... I pass out.

 

Now nothing is more embarassing then crashing..., crashing twice and in front of Wes Craven in his own living room... I left discreatly didn't say bye... wanted to make sure he would not remember me... ( I can already hear it... Yeah there was this Steadicam operator that put this whole into my Living room floor... twice.)

 

That is by the way a reason why I hate Video shoots... and that's why I stay in movies... I can handle 4 or 5 minutes takes but the 2 hour non stop shots?.... I'm to old for that shit!

 

Walter Klassen send me immidiatley 2 sets of pads and additional foam (Thanks Walter!!!) But it looks like as if he has to make some alterations to my vest. He suggested to go with the curved front... 20Lbs are to little to much to still garanty a nice snugg fit. As Walter said it will handle some weight change but not that much.

Greg Bubb repaired my rig... again. I bend up the battery rods... again. Because of me he keeps extras in stock. He already picks up the phone with: "what did you brake this time?" And it was only my second crash this year (...okay third repair).

 

So I hope everybody had a good laugh at my expense...

 

Don't be stupid, be safe...

 

 

Erwin "Crash test dummy" Landau

[JobScholtze]

Man, you made my day. I am still on the floor by your story :D

That Hollywood stuff sounds great. 5 Minutes shot and off :P . I do 2 hours shoot on a weekly basis.

 

I tryd the backmounted vest at the IBC and noticed that it has to be real tight at the waste. Is that true? If so, i would think that that wont help much for the blood circling around

 

Thanks

[Grayson Austin]

Hi All,

 

I almost never post anymore as the forum has really gone downhill lately but as this seems to now involve a potential safety issue, here goes:

 

I have been using Walter's Back mounted harnesses for a long time now. My first harness was serial #11 and was one of the very first completely solid shells and was made of carbon fiber/kevlar weave. Before that, it was a carbon plate for the attachment point and a leather shell. The first arm I had was all aluminum and took lots of time to adjust as bolts had to be undone and redone. My first shell sent to me was too thin(they were still figuring things out) and flexed. Walter sent me another that was thicker carbon/kevlar layers and was great. This was back when the shells were curved to the spine shape. It felt great no matter what. Upgraded that to a carbon fiber arm piece that pivoted at the attachment point to the shell. I liked this design but the pressure on the pivot bolts was intense and they tended to bend or compress and you could not get them out again. Harness still felt great.

 

When I upgraded to the Euro Style harness is when the trouble began. The Euro and all versions now have a straight back design and only the padding changes(air bladder came along too). Ever since then, and several upgrades and even completely new harnesses later as well as the upgrade to the curved front plate, I still have a huge problem with losing feeling in the legs even when used for a short period of time. I have been to the shop, have tried alternative padding, no good. I have no proof but all I can say is that I wish they would go back to the curved back design. I know that some people will have no problem with the straight Euro style harness and that is great but I seem to be hearing the same things now from the same sort of people. Thinner framed people without much meat to help pad things out. I also fit that profile. All I can say is that before with my original curved back style, I carried BLs, Panavised Compacts with Primos, etc most of the time and wore the rig like my favorite pair of jeans. I never took it off. I am not a big guy but I could carry anything I wanted to carry and it was a breeze. Now, even a video camera for any length of time makes me pray that I make it back to the dock without taking a header like Erwin did. Erwin, I hope you are okay. It has nothing to do with weight of the rig. It is definitely the harness as during that harness transition, I still used the same rig with no difference other than the harness.

 

I have talked to Walter at length about this but he feels that it is not a condition of the curved back compared to the straight back design. I don't know who is right but the proof is is the tingling. I still have it badly even with the curved front piece with the double ratchets on both sides to try and make better adjustments. If any other old timers who have also gone from curved back to straight design who may have similar issues would pipe up, maybe it would help. Otherwise, my suggestion would be to have some kind of curved add on placed inside the shell at the back to fit the harness better to the curve of the spine or have a much better curved lay up of foam padding in the upper and middle back. The air bladder in the lower area in my opinion does not do the right job and in fact may contribute to the problem as it just seems to make the lower portion of the harness tighter against my hips and cuts off more circulation.

 

Again, before anyone starts throwing out opinions that don't have/use a back mounted harness, I will say it again, I have been through almost every version and upgrade of harness since it's coming out party except for the all leather version and have tried just about every possible option there is to make this problem better but have had no joy. I am still wishing I had my old harness back. I am very close to selling this harness to someone who can use it and going back to front mounted vest. Don't know what else there is to do unless custom harness can once again be made. I have mostly given up on trying to resolve this.

 

Just my two cents and remember when operating, always make sure your shoes are tied, but not to each other.

 

Grayson Austin

Alien Revolution Owner/Operator

Steadicam Owner/Operator

[benedictspence]

Hi Everyone!

 

Just a quick thanks to all who responded to my post- fully appreciate those pearly-wisdomy-bits!

 

Alec- yes I did loosen my vest a little near the end of the day (reflex to getting sore hips- but obv. the wrong thing to do). Will make sure it's nice and tight all day in the future.

 

Thomas- Will have a play with the carbon arm- try a few different positions and see what works best, thanks mate.

 

Erwin- thats sounds pretty spectacular... I'm still waiting for my first proper crash- I figure the more I look forward to it the less likely it'll be to happen!

 

Grayson- thanks also for dropping in... I'm happy to stand the pain and bruses of back mount, still 10 times better than the pain of front mount. Although I guess there should be no pain at all! I'm going to have a muck around with my air bladder too; see how little air I can have in it and still shoot...

 

So thanks all- will give Klassen a bell later in the week and see what they can do. In the mean time I'll give those tips a try and let you all know what happens.

 

Have just got full feeling back again in my leg! Woo-hoo!

 

Ben Spence

[Lawrence Karman]

I recently had my Sauve/Klasen vest upgraded to the new curved front w/double ratchets and the low profile arm. I too am on the leaner side and after a long day of wearing the rig I would experience soreness around my hip bone, needed an ice pack sometimes. Also had the numbness thing going on, but usually only with a heavier camera package. With the new "upgrade" I never expereince the hip soreness antmore. Even after shooting film for 5 hours straight. (Thank God for reloads). However, I still do occasionally get the numbing feeling, and now it happens in both legs. I am still playing around with how tight to make the ratchets and keeping them on the looser side definatley helps.

[mattmarek]

lawrence, how are you? long time no chat. still have that sld? :)

wondering if you still keep a front mounted vest in your kit? if so , do you interchange between the two ever to get rid of potential numbing?

 

grayson, thanks for gracing this lowly forum with your presence...why not chime in with a little effort now and then to bring it up and out of the ground?

 

my experience with the klassen vest is limited. i found throwing it on for some takes to be a very natural transition, but i also noted the added weight of the vest. guess i need to get into the world of 2hour long video takess before i can really justify the purchase. :P as for health issues, i get the odd tingling when in my masters vest for very extended periods of time. thankfuly nothing as severe as erwins experience. did you actually pass out and drop to the floor with full rig on?? :blink:

[Erwin Landau]

Yes... Why?

 

No circulation to the legs for 30 plus minutes.

Then rushing of all blood to the lower extremities.

Sitting down tying up the circulation back to the upper extremities...

 

Lights out.

 

Bad jugdement.

 

 

As said, Fly safe...

 

 

Erwin "never said anything about sit safe" Landau

[mattmarek]

just curious as to physical harm. i mean if you fall while concious you can use arms or whatever means to fall 'safely' ...passed out, no telling how the rig will drag you down. scary. glad you made out ok. what kind of rig damage?

[Lawrence Karman]

lawrence, how are you? long time no chat. still have that sld? :)

wondering if you still keep a front mounted vest in your kit? if so , do you interchange between the two ever to get rid of potential numbing?

 

grayson, thanks for gracing this lowly forum with your presence...why not chime in with a little effort now and then to bring it up and out of the ground?

 

my experience with the klassen vest is limited. i found throwing it on for some takes to be a very natural transition, but i also noted the added weight of the vest. guess i need to get into the world of 2hour long video takess before i can really justify the purchase. :P as for health issues, i get the odd tingling when in my masters vest for very extended periods of time. thankfuly nothing as severe as erwins experience. did you actually pass out and drop to the floor with full rig on?? :blink:

 

 

Yo, Matt! Good to hear from you. Yes I still use the SLD but it is just starting to get a little glitchy. I think the potentiometer is developing a dead spot and sadly Tiffen no longer has any replacements. I fear it will soon be dead.

 

As for my front mounted vest----sold off. I do miss it on 1 out of a 100 shots (more clearance, Clarence) but truthfully I am not sure the muscles in my lower back I used with the front mounted vest still exist. I wouldn't have much stamina to use it just once in a while.

 

Irwin, perhaps like the old vest had a quick release, Walter could make some carbon fiber safety "legs" that would shoot out the vest at the first sign of circulaltory failure and provide temporary support. Yes I can see it now, with an "On Star" button feature on the front of the vest too. A sexy female voice would come on "Mr Landau, are you OK. Should I call for an ambulance, or a dolly grip?"

[Jurgen Badenhorst]

Hey Guys there is a guy called Tillman Buttner who shot a movie called Russian Ark 90min one steadicam shot. On the behind the scenes he talks about the same thing in his legs. When I spoke to him on my course in Munich he said after the called cut he had no feeling in his leg....I just bought a Duel mount from Walter he said he will phone m to tell me how to set up my vest to avoid any problems....

 

Later JB

[WalterKlassen]

Hey guys,

Jennifer here from Walter Klassen FX.

 

normally we try not to invade your discussion forum but Walter has been reading all your posts closely and wanted to give some general advice, thoughts and feedback about the "leg tingling" and sore hips issues.

He's talked to many operators about all this and here are some suggestions:

 

One operator recently told us that he used to get numb legs but found this solution. He asked him grip to watch his posture and remind him to keep his legs shoulder-width apart when he was standing so as not to overload one leg when standing still. Apparently this has worked really well for him and as far as we know solved the problem.

 

It also seems like operators are being asked to do longer shots and hold the camera longer without docking. It?s important to keep spreading the load on both legs and not crush the load on one leg.

Lawrence Karman posted a similar story here back in January 2004 (Lawrence, hope it's OK that I re-type this since I can't find the original link).

"I do have that tingly feeling. More of a numbness on the outside of my left leg which I find comes more with a heavy camera package... Last week I brought my vest over to my chiropractor who feels that it is not pressing onto a nerve as the vest rides fairly high. He seemed positive that when I lock my leg in a lock-off position there are muscles that work to stabilize the leg left and right and they are being over worked in this position. The muscles' reaction is to shut down feeling in that area. This kind of makes sense in that I am more likely to feel it only with a heavy package. Who knows. I am also trying to stand with the weight distributed between both legs more and this seems to help as well"

 

Finally, everyone is talking about proper fit and we agree it's very important. As Jerry posted in this other thread it seems like posture and working to find the best way your harness/vest fits your body to minimize impact is key.

http://www.steadicamforum.com/forums/index...?showtopic=2426

 

In a Klassen harness, adjusting the position of your carbon arm, putting the right pressure in your air bladder and getting your harness in the right position on your hips and around your waist can make a huge difference in your comfort level. Once you get used to finding that ?sweet spot? then it becomes second nature. This is why we encourage new customers to have Walter talk you through your first time set-up so that he can get you as properly fitted as possible from the get-go.

 

Walter and the rest of us here are always available by phone or email to answer any of your questions.

walter@walterklassen.com

(416) 778-7848

 

See you all at CINEGEAR :)

 

Jen

[joe mcnally]

I have had the odd tingling too luckily nothing debilitating and nothing a quick 2 minute break and adjustment couldn't fix.

The temptation is to keep going not to lose any face and pray you'll get through on a long take.

Once in a while there is just no way of stopping the action or you will ruin the moment, this should be very rare. The WK vest already allows me to keep a shot a lot longer than a front mount would have allowed me so directors and producers are coming to expect you to have the rig on a shot framed for at least half an hour in TV land.

I think it is imperitive to agree before work begins with the director or person in charge of the show that you must have regular little breaks for adjustment.

Even put it in written terms and conditions.

I have these terms on my website basically saying the operators decision is always final.

As I said there may be very rare occassions when you just need to keep going, this should never, ever, be the case when there are 4 or 5 other cameras to cut to.

Also dont forget to warm up properly like for any physical activity you need to get the blood flowing before hand

Regards

Joe

[Charles Papert]

Thought I would chip in and add my findings--I have the curved front vest, need to send it in to have the hinge replaced with the pin so I can add that extension as needed. I have too experienced the numbing, mostly in my right leg (I operate conventionally) but not much recently, although I haven't had to do any ridiculously long takes in a while.

 

I think the overall reality is that this is a continuing science and I think the saving grace of all this is that Walter and Co. are committed to fixing this problem rather than suppress it (as is often the case with certain of our manufacturers--who here has not been told "you're the only one who's had this problem" only to find out that a bunch of other ops have previously filed similar complaints?).

 

It's interesting to hear Grayson's thoughts on the prior versions of the harness. Ron B., you're an old-timer with this gear, do you have any corroboration on this?