G50X and G70X arm

[Jens Piotrowski SOC]

Dont forget that people are complaining about this from day one.

I for one cant wait to see what will be happening with all those owners who have these arms or just recently bought.

 

that's why it's so important to test equipment and talk to owners before buying...

 

btw, when I said "at cost", that means, no mark-up, meaning you pay however much it costs to manufacture the parts....

[James Davis]

I think the problem was initially when a lot of us bought our kit, in my personal instance over a year ago, there were no specifically outright negative reviews of the arm and a lot of people (like myself) and Matteo thought the issue initially must have been with our operating technique.

 

What became especially irritating though is that after a while no amount of tweaking seems to get rid of the problem and you are left with an intermittent bounce that shows up out of no where which can completely ruin the look of a slow moving shot.

Over time I found as my operating technique improved, that despite getting better as an operator and better at tuning the arm to minimize this issue the problem would still rear it's ugly head during slower moving shots and there was no way to predictably deal with it when it did happen as it is/was almost impossible to gauge the exact speed at which it happens.

It's also one more thing that becomes something you need to focus on, which is a massive pain, operating is challenging and mentally taxing enough without worrying about how to dial out problems with your equipment while you go about your job.

 

When I found out that this was an issue many other people have had to deal with as well and that it was a mechanical design fault within the product and nothing to do with my own personal technique I feel it was something that would have impacted my decision on whether to purchase this rig in the first place.

So now that Tiffen have rectified the problem in the new version, essentially creating an arm that works as it should have worked in the first place, that is designed as it should have been in the first place, I feel that owners like myself should be offered a replacement in trade-in for their faulty G50 arms that have never worked as advertised and have never been fit for their intended purpose.

Edited January 21, 2012 by James Davis

[Dean Emmanouil]

I'm a fresh newbie in the world of Steadicam. I own a flyer and thought it would be a great idea to take the Eastern Classic Workshop in Atlanta and find out if this is what I want to do. I wasn't disappointed! I consider myself lucky now know a few people on this forum from the workshop. I also consider myself lucky to be able to read here about the experiences established ops are having on the forum.

 

But there is an issue. How can I have peace of mind about buying a used G arm? The last thing I want to do is invest in a problem at this level. And can an operator sell their equipment knowing that they are dumping a problem on a fellow op? Or is this simply an evolution of a product?

 

Buying new is a pretty big bite to swallow at this stage of the game. Even though they had the X arms at the workshop, I was not experienced enough to feel /see the difference.

[Afton Grant]

But there is an issue. How can I have peace of mind about buying a used G arm? The last thing I want to do is invest in a problem at this level. And can an operator sell their equipment knowing that they are dumping a problem on a fellow op? Or is this simply an evolution of a product?

 

Then don't buy one! Buy a PRO, or one of Hugo's or one of Luna's.... Nothing is forcing you to buy anything. Just like nothing forced myself or any of the G owners to buy what they bought when they bought it. Sorry, Dean. I don't mean to come down right on you. I'm directing this at all those with a similar tone to yours in this thread.

 

Nobody here bought an arm without being fully aware of the other arms available to them on the market. At the price point of even the G50, I would think some significant research and certainly test driving would be the least a consumer could do to make sure they're making the right decision. I think it's safe to say all those of us who own a G arm, it performs exactly the same today as it did when we first picked it up. If the performance is as poor as people are making it seem to be, why make the purchase in the first place? It's not as if there was a sudden failure which is why this air of shock and anger is feeling a little strange to me, and I'm really finding the term "defective" to be a bit dramatic, no?

 

Dean, I think you did make the right point with your last question there about the evolution of a product. It's really nothing more than any upgrade we've ever had with any of our gear. Gear changes. Improvements are made. And just to be open, I have no vested interest in the Tiffen company. It is of no consequence to me one way or another if the company sells more arms. I was not asked to say this, nor am I expecting any compensation for saying it.

[Thomas English]

I can agree with Chris here that the new arm feels amazing.

 

From the indications I have heard mentioned of the upgrade price its not dissimilar to getting an arm service. Essentially they are taking the thing apart and re-greasing lots of bits as well as changing the bearings and other things so really it is an arm service.

 

In light of this I really don't see an issue. Get your arm serviced and upgraded at Tiffen.

[William Demeritt]

Then don't buy one! Buy a PRO, or one of Hugo's or one of Luna's.... Nothing is forcing you to buy anything.

 

Respectfully, it's a piece of equipment that is the sine qua non of what we do, so as a Steadicam operator, we are forced to buy SOMETHING. Yes, nobody forced operators to buy the G-50 arm, or a G-70 arm; nobody made that purchase decision for anyone else, and we've all invested in a bum piece of gear before. However, few are the times we buy a piece of equipment that defines our operating, influences a client on our capability as an operator when looking at the monitor, etc.

 

Every operator does need to ask around, but how much asking do they need to do? Why is it up to the operator to investigate well beyond the due diligence expected of someone making an investment? Caveat emptor and all that stuff, I know.

 

I'm not siding with anyone, I'm really just curious about what happens next with this issue, because it's going to be very telling in the nature of our industry and the close relationships we have with the manufacturers of our equipment. Dean brings up an excellent point, which correlates to my original question of "How much for the upgrade? Is there a cost?"

 

Anyone selling their G-series arm may very likely see their going price negatively affected, along with questions of "Have you upgraded this arm yet? Does it still have the poor performance at slow speeds? Is that why you're selling it?" I concede that the manufacturers have no responsibility to protect the second-hand market, but we're looking at this equipment as investments, and part of any investment is the question of salvage value or resale.

 

With regards to an "air of shock and anger", I think it's because this discussion marks a delineation between a problem a few operators have heard about to a "new" product and how it's different from it's non-X family. Before this discussion, the G-series arms had a value. After this discussion, the G-50X/70X arms (which many operators own) have that value and the previous G-50/70 arms have less than "one generation old" arms due to a perceived flaw.

 

As a non-owner of either arm, I can appreciate the approach that newer revisions come out, more finesse, better quality. I'm at arm's length (pun intended) from the issue. However, the people who are shopping for used arms are taking notice. The operators who own a G-50/70 arm are now aware of a problem with their investment; they're unable to confidently deliver their skill to demanding clients.

 

I think everyone's curious to see what Tiffen's response is going to be to this grey area question. Is it an upgrade? Is it optional? Is it a flaw, a recall that needs to be addressed for free? Is it an electable fix, and priced for concerned owners for a short period? As the operators have shown, everyone has their own perspective. The only question left now is from the manufacturer? How do they perceive their product and what is the appropriate response?

 

I'm eager to see the answers, as I think it's the sort of thing that will invariably define or reinforce Tiffen's name in years to come.

 

Since everyone is into full disclosure: I own a second-hand PRO arm with my kit, learned on Tiffen sleds, also operated on a

2+ years ago with a G-50 arm where I covered about 40-50 feet over 75 seconds (double speed music, slowed down to "normal speed"), and every time I watch the video, I see my steps. Maybe I suck at slow moves? Maybe it was the arm? Understand the conflict: I SHOULD practice more to be fantastic at slow moves, but with that arm... how will I know if I am any good?

 

People bought that arm, expecting to be limited by their ability, not some geometric flaws or poorly selected/implemented bearings.

[Lars Erik]

Has Tiffen yet released a price for the upgrade?

 

I must agree with Afton, and if you're all unhappy with Tiffens way of dealing with this issue, there's only one option. Don't buy Tiffen next time.

[Matteo Quagliano]

Here's not a matter of being happy with Tiffen or not being aware of the specs of an arm before testing it.

 

Here the point was (since now it has been addressed as it should have been from day one) an arm that was not working properly in specific conditions (slow walk) but people at Tiffen and ops in general wouldn't say that in respect of Tiffen and Garret. That's ok, I can understand it but when I work I don't mind Tiffen nor Garret, I mind what I deliver and as William said watching the monitor with your DPs or directors and feeling shame is not good (I repeat it only in super slow walks other then that I deliver good shots and you can see them in my reel and feel safe in buying a G50, I've been using it for all the stuff in there).

 

Let's see what Tiffen will do, I'm eager to have this upgrade. As said paying or not. The "air" people feel over this thread is due to the attitude Tiffen has towards this issue, it's you not the arm, never believed it and got quite frustrated for that. Anyway I'm confident.

 

maqu

[Sanjay Sami]

But there is an issue. How can I have peace of mind about buying a used G arm? The last thing I want to do is invest in a problem at this level. And can an operator sell their equipment knowing that they are dumping a problem on a fellow op? Or is this simply an evolution of a product?

 

Then don't buy one! Buy a PRO, or one of Hugo's or one of Luna's.... Nothing is forcing you to buy anything. Just like nothing forced myself or any of the G owners to buy what they bought when they bought it. Sorry, Dean. I don't mean to come down right on you. I'm directing this at all those with a similar tone to yours in this thread.

 

Nobody here bought an arm without being fully aware of the other arms available to them on the market. At the price point of even the G50, I would think some significant research and certainly test driving would be the least a consumer could do to make sure they're making the right decision. I think it's safe to say all those of us who own a G arm, it performs exactly the same today as it did when we first picked it up. If the performance is as poor as people are making it seem to be, why make the purchase in the first place? It's not as if there was a sudden failure which is why this air of shock and anger is feeling a little strange to me, and I'm really finding the term "defective" to be a bit dramatic, no?

 

Dean, I think you did make the right point with your last question there about the evolution of a product. It's really nothing more than any upgrade we've ever had with any of our gear. Gear changes. Improvements are made. And just to be open, I have no vested interest in the Tiffen company. It is of no consequence to me one way or another if the company sells more arms. I was not asked to say this, nor am I expecting any compensation for saying it.

 

 

I've got to agree with Afton.

I own a G-70 and have never had a problem with this.

It could be that it is more pronounced on the G-50 than on the G-70.

The first I heard of the upgrade on the arm was while I was working with Larry McConkey on a movie a couple of years ago, and I saw Larry had a bit on his G-70 that was different looking (basically non-anodised) from my G-70.

I asked him about the upgrade, and he said he was field testing it for Garrett and Jerry.

Having said that, he used my stock G-70 on some occasions (maybe to get a feel for the difference) and honestly I couldnt tell the difference, and neither could our (very discerning) DoP Bob Richardson tell the difference.

My operating is a whole lot cruder than Larry's, so its less likely that I would be able to tell the difference :D

I for one am in no hurry to get my arm upgraded, and certainly do not feel short changed by Tiffen.

[Matteo Quagliano]

Sorry but I don't agree with Afton.

 

i don't feel it's an upgrade. I feel it as a fixing thing. Consider it's not that improves something, it just make the arm work as it should from day one in the situation we all know. Let's not start a quarrel between people feeling it and people not feeling it. That's not the point here, nor the point is buying stuff from Tiffen or being happy with that.

 

Let's stick to the point and the point is G50 arm is not working flawless, Jerry himself said it, upgrades are fixing it, let's see if it does and if it does how much is to do it.

 

maqu

[Matteo Quagliano]

on a side... offering free (or low cost) upgrades would be great PR and customer service for Tiffen.

I want to make it clear again, I feel great working with my rig, as said previuosly by others, telescoping post, tilting head, tunable arm... all are great innovations and beautiful to have on field. I come out from freaking situation thanks to my equipment. There's just that thing with the arm we NOW ALL KNOW ABOUT to solve.

 

maqu

[Robert Starling SOC]

 

...Anyone selling their G-series arm may very likely see their going price negatively affected... and part of any investment is the question of salvage value or resale.

 

... Before this discussion, the G-series arms had a value...

 

...I think everyone's curious to see what Tiffen's response is going to be...?

 

...I'm eager to see the answers, as I think it's the sort of thing that will invariably define or reinforce Tiffen's name in years to come...

 

Interesting points William!

 

I hadn't thought about it but now that the cat is out of the bag so to speak how will current G series owners sell their arms/rigs to upgrade?

 

Handled smartly this situation has the potential to be an excellent PR opportunity and reinforce the brand image. Tiffen can be the heroes by taking care of these ops in a timely, no-hassle / affordable manner.

 

Based on the EXCELLENT service Tiffen gave me over the course of three rigs I bet they will do the same here. It's sort of their game to lose from this point forward and I doubt they will blow it off.

 

Good luck gentlemen! My guess is the factory will remedy this to your satisfaction in short order. If they didn't care they would have never bothered to make the corrections at all.

 

Robert

[Alec Jarnagin SOC]

OK guys, I've been trying my best to stay out of this since I own a PRO arm, but I feel I need to point out one thing regarding the used market.

You people clearly never had a 1/2/3/3a arm back in the day. I had close to $20K invested in mine by the time I sold it for $6K. There were so many upgrades and versions. No one remembers this now. Likewise there was a serious upgrade to the Master Arm. Today when I see these items sold., there is no mention of any of this. People just don't do their homework anymore which is nuts because there is more information and resources out there than ever before. Wait a year, and no one will remember this. Sorry if I sound pessimistic or sarcastic but I'm really not encouragd by what I'm reading here.

 

In addition, I was one of the people that did test the arms. Afton is right - it is not broken - it is just not as good as a PRO. In NY, a lot of the top operators use the G-70 arm with great success.

 

Maqu,, you are not a moderator here so please don't start telling people they are getting off topic.

 

Indeed Tiffen's reaction will be a test of customer service but I don't think some of you are being fair to them. They should be encouraged to improve products.

 

OK, that is my rant. Thank you.

[Matteo Quagliano]

I apologize. It was not my intent at all.

[Tomas Riuka]

Lots of emotional discussions, reminds me of something :D