Premium Members James Davis Posted January 23, 2012 Premium Members Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 OK guys, I've been trying my best to stay out of this since I own a PRO arm, but I feel I need to point out one thing regarding the used market. You people clearly never had a 1/2/3/3a arm back in the day. I had close to $20K invested in mine by the time I sold it for $6K. There were so many upgrades and versions. No one remembers this now. Likewise there was a serious upgrade to the Master Arm. Today when I see these items sold., there is no mention of any of this. People just don't do their homework anymore which is nuts because there is more information and resources out there than ever before. Wait a year, and no one will remember this. Sorry if I sound pessimistic or sarcastic but I'm really not encouragd by what I'm reading here. In addition, I was one of the people that did test the arms. Afton is right - it is not broken - it is just not as good as a PRO. In NY, a lot of the top operators use the G-70 arm with great success. Maqu,, you are not a moderator here so please don't start telling people they are getting off topic. Indeed Tiffen's reaction will be a test of customer service but I don't think some of you are being fair to them. They should be encouraged to improve products. OK, that is my rant. Thank you. Not sure if you made a mistake in which arm you meant there Alec, but I tried a G70 arm at the Tiffen Tango Demo just over a year ago and the performance was far superior at slow speeds compared to my G50 and indeed other G50's that I have used, considering there is supposed to be no discernible performance difference between the arms other than the weight range I was quite surprised by this. I don't hear about many G70 owners who have experienced this issue as much as many G50 owners of whom many have been plagued by this bob/stiction/friction issue at slower speeds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Members JamieSilverstein Posted January 23, 2012 Premium Members Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 Alec couldn't have expressed it any better. Tiffen has had bumps in the road when it comes to arms. I know, I owned a Masters, paid dearly to get it upgraded when the elbows started to show hairline cracks. Unfortunately wasn't one of the operators who had upgrades given or offered them by Tiffen. It was a problem that I had to deal with myself and sort of solved thanks to the fine work of Rob Luna. And that didn't really make the arm better, it just insured that the arm wouldn't self-destruct. The Masters arm was very difficult to balance out and often the bone next to the vest would lock. I really didn't have much fondness for the arm. Did I learn? Nah. I was cheap and opted to save several thousands on another Tiffen arm. The G70 was about $4000.00 less than the PRO when I purchased it. It was good but maybe not as good as the PRO..... But that $4000 was big..... Baby needed new shoes. My G70 is Ok. Yes I see my foot steps at times, but it's better than the Masters. Stiction????? Can't really say, but another complaint about another Tiffen arm doesn't make me feel any better. Here's the issue. When you consider the history of the Tiffen Arms, they are far far far from flawless, and now with an admitted problem with the first generation of G70s, the response by Tiffen is to put out a A NEW ARM. That to me is an admission that the G70 wasn't a complete product, but still developing. The subsequent result is a devaluation of the current G70 model, the cycle of an irksome business practice continues. All this time the PRO arm still remains the industry standard, doesn't change or morph, maintains it's value and has a company that stands firmly behind it's well thought out and executed product. If a new model comes out, it's not because the previous is flawed, it's because they have made it that much better. See any difference in philosophy?? I don't believe it's about Jerry or Garrett. It's about a business model. Buy new and then feel compelled to buy a better model when the previous one proves flawed all the while the company is silent not trying to make the original better. The other model is buy a compete product once and trust that the product has been well thought out and tested and will ultimately serve you well for a long time to come. AT THIS POINT, If I were Tiffen I would seriously think about putting profit in their back pocket and makeing sure that each and every G70 owner is as happy as any future G 70X owner, or maybe as happy as any PRO ARM owner. To make that commitment would prove to the Steadicam community that Tiffen cares about the quality of it's products and the people to whom they sell them. Peace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Alec Jarnagin SOC Posted January 23, 2012 Moderators Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 James, I was speaking of the G70. Never tried a G50 as that weight limit is useless to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Members Alfeo Dixon SOC Posted January 23, 2012 Premium Members Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 I'm just curious to how many operators that felt or saw there foot steps actually dialed in there arm with both Ride and Lift for that particular shot in question? I for one use to not touch my Ride adjustment for the first 2 years of my operating, why... because even though I knew how to and the true purpose of each, the LIft seemed to be the only difference needed. I would change the Ride for hard mounted car work only. But as the camera weight changes, the Ride and Lift should be proportionately changed also (If logic and pure physics are at work here). The bounciness was more noticeable on my G70 with lighter setups, usually I fly the heavier cameras and occasionally the ENG/Studio config. I have a great relationship with Tiffen and the Steadicam team which has always stood by their products ever since I flew a rental Ultra1 (prototype) to my Ultra2 Again, just curious about dialing in for ever config... Post Script Thought: You wouldn't use the same struts nor shocks on a Wrangler, 4Runner nor Hummer... -Alfeo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Members William Demeritt Posted January 23, 2012 Premium Members Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 always stood by their products ever since I flew a rental Ultra1 (prototype) to my Ultra2 On a side note, I've got a(/the?) prototype Ultra 1 in my office right how, rewiring it for a fellow operator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Members Matteo Quagliano Posted January 23, 2012 Premium Members Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 Alfeo, I end up having zero iso in my arm, meaning turning the ride know to its lowest, meaning using the arm as springy as I can. And I did that not because I don't like ISO but because it was the only (for me) way to reduce the awful bounciness. I started 2 years ago with my G50 and I can remember from day one the situation. I was used to make this exercise, the camera pointing 90 degrees walk back and forth shooting a perfectly horizontal handrail, I see the bounciness, then I start for months playing with ride, no results, then I end up lowering the socket block and using the arm with no ISO-Ride. But I still see them, less but once in a while they occur. Light load a real nightmare. Now I always shoot with ZERO Ride. I'm confident too that Tiffen will stand next to its products, especially when they're going out with a new generation intended to substitute the older. maqu p.s. it was never my intent to be rude or not respectful to everyone here, If I do it was a mistake and I apologize again. The reason is I love this craft and I got really involved in to this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Members Matteo Quagliano Posted January 23, 2012 Premium Members Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 Alec, I agree with you, in a year or even less this issue is going to be forgotten. And there'll be no big devaluation involved. But for me the problem is now for working not reselling, I love the arm and I want to work with it freely. Next week I'm gonna be on a set with a big italian director and DP, they already told me it's going to be architecture inside a museum, no actors... ouch... maqu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Members Brian Freesh Posted January 23, 2012 Premium Members Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 Regarding the used market, If indeed the non-X arms become significantly devalued. This should be confirmed before my hypothesis is correct, but according to Jerry the X-mod is little more than a servicing of the arm (labor-wise). When I buy gear I make sure it has been serviced and checked out first, and when I sell gear I make sure to have it serviced first. So even if the X-modis a pay-for item, wouldn't you just have it done when you send the arm to service before you sell it? Then the arm would no longer be devalued and you could sell it as an X arm. Conversely, if you wanted to buy it and not wait for the seller to service it, couldn't you pay what a used X-arm is worth minus the service/upgrade price (minus a little extra to buffer for unknown wear and tear fixes) and then have it done yourself? I'm not debating wether the X-mod should be free or not. Just saying that regardless it seems like there's not much concern for an arm being devalued on the used market. Assuming the mod is as simple, and presumably therefore inexpensive, as I've inferred. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Members JamieSilverstein Posted January 23, 2012 Premium Members Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 Brian; I guess my point is not really about the value of the arm. It's a tool to use for work, on to speculate on. But when you buy a product, you want a company to firmly stand behind that product. I don't believe that CP and then Tiffen did or have. In two separate instances, I have been effected by the design problems inherent in the arms made by CP and then Tiffen, so I have first hand knowledge and in the first instance paid a very handsome price to have the issue resolved. The solution is quite simple from my perspective and never addressed by Tiffen. Contact the users of the product and work with them to make sure that they are happy. Plain and simple. Admit to the flaw, correct the flaw if necessary and ultimately have customers that feel like they are being respected. EVERY CUSTOMER, not just the ones who spent their riches on a full boat rig, but those as well who have only purchased an arm. Not just the heavy hitters and hot shots, but the guys who do less high profile projects as well. It's called customer service. Just my 2¢. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Members Alfeo Dixon SOC Posted January 23, 2012 Premium Members Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 On a side note, I've got a(/the?) prototype Ultra 1 in my office right how, rewiring it for a fellow operator. If its the one that NFL Films had bought from Dave Dart... that's the one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Members Brian Freesh Posted January 23, 2012 Premium Members Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 Jamie I was discussing a different issue that was raised. As stated, I'm not debating what Tiffen should be doing for their customers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Members Brian Freesh Posted January 23, 2012 Premium Members Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 On a side note, I've got a(/the?) prototype Ultra 1 in my office right how, rewiring it for a fellow operator. If its the one that NFL Films had bought from Dave Dart... that's the one To my knowledge there were three Ultra 1 Prototypes. I own one, which is in Will's office right now. I do not know where the other 2 are, but I'm gonna guess one is at NFL Films :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Members Matteo Quagliano Posted January 24, 2012 Premium Members Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 Any news from Tiffen? Upgrades for free or charge? How much is going to cost? No news bad news. I want to push them since now there's a solution I'm struggling for having it. thanks, maqu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Members Matteo Quagliano Posted January 24, 2012 Premium Members Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 Brian Freesh out of curiosity do you own a G50 arm? Brian Fowler you said you see improvements but did you experience the issue? Bobbling? Or whatever you want to call it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Members Bryan Fowler Posted January 24, 2012 Premium Members Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 Matteo: I have purchased two G50 arms. I am happy with both of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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