G50X and G70X arm

[Charles Papert]

To add a little fuel to the fire, it's long been my experience that operators view their own work through a remarkably wide variety of clear to deeply rose-colored glasses, so the footsteps thing may be perceived as more of an issue by some than others. Historically one can look at work done with a 3A or Master's arm by the best operators and see not a hint of footsteps; likewise there are shots being made as we speak with PRO arms featuring bobbing foreground elements up the wazoo.

 

At my operating peak I felt that hiding the steps was one of my primary assets but by the end I had basically gone to shit in that regard. I even suspected my PRO arm but it checked out perfectly fine (maybe I should have tried hosing down my own chassis)?

 

It's always great to use the best tools available but the meat side of the Steadicam equation is ultimately the most critical factor.

[Alec Jarnagin SOC]

Hi folks. Going to stay out of the arm debate, but I ask that when replying to a post, scroll down to the "add reply" and thus refrain from quoting the entire post you are replying to (which often has other entire posts in it). If you need to quote someone, just quote that section please. This is a waste of server space otherwise and a pain to read (although this thread is already painful to read).

 

Thank you.

[RonBaldwin]

...I even suspected my PRO arm but it checked out perfectly fine (maybe I should have tried hosing down my own chassis)?...

 

knowing Charles very well and sitting next to his chassis at many a bar, I'd say a hose down is a good start

[Alan Rencher]

Hey Charles, are you still doing master classes? I think a lot of us could use one. Maybe we could learn to master the equipment we have.

[RonBaldwin]

Charled did some fantastic workshops for sure.

 

I don't know much about bearings (even though my career depends on them) but why would a teflon bearing be an advantage over the usual? Was this a cost cutting thing or do they perform just as good (better?) than ball bearings?

[Charles Papert]

Alan: no master classes planned for immediate future although they may return down the road.

[William Demeritt]

Eric, how do you know that is not the cause. i beleive touching a tiffen product would burn your hands (silver & vampire analogie) :) but seriously if the upgrade means changing teflon bearings to ball bearings, logically it is clear that there is something with teflon bearings. it`s either teflon deterioreting or the dust makes it`s way within bearings, mating with the oil already present and obstructs its proper fonction by making it sticky. and if the service makes the problem to go away for a while i bet it`s the dust messing with our arms.

 

also constantly making fun of tiffen products with bearly usable suggestions about our equipment is not very nice or helpful. i know i`m very new to forums and fairly new in steadicam world but your comments seems pointless other than making us feel bad. of caurse each should tell about his/her experiences and favor a product over another but i think this isn`t what you`re doing.

 

Actually, I remember seeing Eric spend a good chunk of time at the Tiffen booth at NAB this year giving specific feedback to Chris Fawcett on the design of the Exovest, I would imagine for improvements? He held the Exovest the entire time, and didn't burst into flames, even while flying their rigs at the booth.

 

Regarding "making fun of Tiffen products", he wrote the simplicity of cleaning the PRO arm. Maybe Jack doesn't advertise exactly this method, but his point is you CAN do it this way. Do you believe his method is falsely represented? If so, please call him out on it.

 

Otherwise, yes, I don't think anyone participating in the forum has any misgivings: Eric prefers the equipment he's invested in just as every operator (hopefully) prefers their own equipment. The thread is in the "Arms" category, and just because Eric is the most frequent to cite the strengths of the PRO arm over other manufacturer's arms doesn't make his claims less valid. If anyone believes they are, then please explain how.

 

Perhaps Eric is overbearing (be they teflon or ball bearing... sorry), but with the exception of Jerry Holway, nobody seems to be taking him to task over his claims that the gear he invested in is superior. If you disagree, speak up. However, I'd really be disappointed if positive reviews are disregarded simply because of the voice bringing them up.

 

Why does it seem people are so paranoid about a negative review? If it's major manufacturers charging for an "upgrade" when a competitor hasn't needed to "upgrade" anything in over a decade, is that not a valid thing to cite? When MK-V seems to generate strong negative reviews, we still walk on egg shells. Why is that?

 

If someone claims a product you own is sub-standard, that's not cause to silence that person. That's cause to examine your investment, consider their claims (and any evidence they give), determine if they have a valid point that affects you, and proceed accordingly.

 

As far as defending manufacturers, or restricting feedback about equipment, I can't help but think of a post of Janice's from a few months ago:

 

"Some should fail"

[Evrim KAYA]

okay, the section may be arms but the title is g50x g70x. and through 16 pages the the subject is more or less evolved around; why a new series of arms appaered with some minor changes and was there something wrong with the old series. and lot of operators are trying to find a solution to their problem others triyng to understand the problem and find ways to avoid if possible. most of us dont have resourses to simply go out and buy a new arm, or just invested on a new one and here comes some potential problem. in that climate is it nice to jump to every(lets say it again EVERY) occasion and make fun of the product.

 

once, twice, three times but there must be a limit somewhere. this is a very dear and very real problem to us which might affect our livelyhoods. i just expected a little more helpful attidude. one of us asks about iso settings and the comment comes `buy a pro`. someother asks about cleaning the arm and here comes `the garden hoes`. i`m all for humour but i think eric`s comments just pissed me. not because he favors pro arm (damn good arm!!) not because the comments are valid or not but because it seems like he gets a kick out of our misfortune. most (if not all) of his posts are not helpful at all and boy, he loves to post.

 

yeah i am a newbie in the forums and still a green in the steadicam world (4 years). but what i`m talking about is basic human decency, like not kicking someone who is already down even if it`s your ennemy and common! we are supposed to be helpful friends aren`t we?.

 

i`m not trying to silence anyone. i just expected from an established operator like Eric to say more in lines of `i`m sorry about this, this is wrong, i never experienced this from pro` instead of `hahahaha you bought a crappy gear, and mine is better than yours!`

 

i hope i made myself clear and dind`t broke any unwritten laws of the forums.

 

by the way g-70 still working perfectly :) hope stays this well.

[Eric Fletcher S.O.C.]

Evrim,

 

 

I've been involved with, and flying steadicams for over 32 years. Ted Churchill was a mentor. I met Garrett when I was 19 years old. Jerry and I did the Maine workshop together. I've flown Every Rig and Arm that Cinema Products built, Built my own sleds (out of carbon fiber no less) designed and built a set of pulleys that linearised a 3A arm to a +/- 1.5 force delta bottom to top (The PRO arm is 2.5lbs bottom to top) I've flown the g50, g70 and the X versions of those arms. I've flown the silver spring arm, the schatler arms and the glidecam arm. I've flown movecams and others.  I've owned a Model 1, Model 2 a 3A, several rigs I built, a PRO2, then the PRO2 was modified with a 2" center post and finally a XCS Ultimate. I've owned my PRO arm for 12 years (It has the original cut back Titanium socket block and my 12 year old Pro suit has the Ti Socket block) I've had a steadicam Model 1 suit, model 2 suit a 3A suit and a Klassen Backmount in addition to my PRO suit. I've been involved with interesting steadicam projects like the "Alien" long before people like Howard smith claimed they invented it.

 

I've taught, consulted and shoot on series, I'm in the rig pretty much everyday I work (over 3000 hours per year for the last 10 years...) I'm presently testing gear for Arri, Panavision, Nikon, PRO, Cinetronics and quite a few others and that's mainly because I'm known for not putting up with any BS when it comes to equipment and giving the manufactures a straight answer whether or not its the answer they want to hear.

 

What does any of that mean?  Not much, other than I've earned my right to a critical opinion because I have the experience to draw on to back it up. If I'm critical of something you like lets discuss WHY you think it's better and back it up with comparative experience.

[Evrim KAYA]

ok, i was afraid of this! let me explain myself, first of all. i know who you are and respect you. you were around operating steadicam before i learnt to speak. you are more than welcome to critical approach on these subjects. i read crazy amount of steadicam forum posts and you are always there sharing your experiences or ideas.

 

everybody has the right to share his/her point of view and for someone like you it`s perhaps more than a right but a duty to share and help.

 

my problem was the way you did it in this. numerous g series owners are trying to solve/identify this problem and you are saying pro arm is better. we know pro arm is a very good arm nobody told otherwise. but we have g series arms and there might be a problem with it, and you say you should have bought pro. can you explain to me how this is helpful? could we just go back to the subject at hand please. and maybe find a solution to our problem which is not related in any way to PRO (again, which is a great arm with no modification needed in 20 years)

 

i meant no disrespect to you, your career, your technical knowlege or your preferences. i`m just a little dissapointed about your multiple unhelpful comments.

 

there might be a problem with g series arm. there must be a technical solution to solve this. tiffen might be more helpful in this subjet. so please Eric help us with your knowlenge but dont tell us over and over and over "pro is better"

 

i hope i made myself clear; not trying to silence ideas, not disrecpecting an operator with much much more experience than me. just trying to solve/identify a problem with my arm.

 

ps: if we understood eachother could you just tell me why the dust settling within teflon bearings can`t be the problem?

[RonBaldwin]

don't make me re-start the Jumbos or flan discussion

[Eric Fletcher S.O.C.]

ps: if we understood eachother could you just tell me why the dust settling within teflon bearings can`t be the problem?

 

Using a Teflon thrust bearing is a engineering faux paux of EPIC proportions. Having said that Dust settling on them is not the reason for the stiction issue, which is a VERY real issue

[Evrim KAYA]

ps: if we understood eachother could you just tell me why the dust settling within teflon bearings can`t be the problem?

 

Using a Teflon thrust bearing is a engineering faux paux of EPIC proportions. Having said that Dust settling on them is not the reason for the stiction issue, which is a VERY real issue

 

why? (not denying, requesting clarification)

ps: pro arm is great!

[James Davis]

I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong, but I believe it is mostly to do with normal Teflons unfortunate propensity to deform significantly under load.

 

Although i'm sure Eric with his excellent mechanical knowledge will chime in and expand on this/correct me ;)

[Eric Fletcher S.O.C.]

I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong, but I believe it is mostly to do with normal Teflons unfortunate propensity to deform significantly under load.

 

Although i'm sure Eric with his excellent mechanical knowledge will chime in and expand on this/correct me ;)

 

 

Add to that a non heat treatable grade of aluminum that isn't exactly the stiffest (5052's stong points are forming by bending, weldability and excellent anaodizing) and you have problems designed in. Remember the issues that forced Larry to use a PRO arm on hugo? The G70 wasn't stiff enough