G50X and G70X arm

[chris fawcett]

Add to that a non heat treatable grade of aluminum that isn't exactly the stiffest (5052's stong points are forming by bending, weldability and excellent anaodizing) and you have problems designed in. Remember the issues that forced Larry to use a PRO arm on hugo? The G70 wasn't stiff enough

http://www.steadicamforum.com/index.php?showtopic=16026&st=0&p=76332entry76332

[Jerry Holway]

I just found this out:

No component on the G70 or G50 is made from 5052.

 

5052 is not heat-treatable, but it is capable of being work hardened. ie the -32 after the 5052-32 callout.

 

5052 has near identical stiffness properties than other common aluminums. (ie 1100, 3003, 6063, 6061, or 7075). It is mainly in the yield properties of the material that effects its end strength after it is bent.

[Evrim KAYA]

I just found this out:

No component on the G70 or G50 is made from 5052.

 

5052 is not heat-treatable, but it is capable of being work hardened. ie the -32 after the 5052-32 callout.

 

5052 has near identical stiffness properties than other common aluminums. (ie 1100, 3003, 6063, 6061, or 7075). It is mainly in the yield properties of the material that effects its end strength after it is bent.

 

thank you Jerry for the clarification about the material. can you also comment about the teflon bearings. we`d like to hear your view on the matter of deformable teflon bearings under load causing the problem. mine still works perfectly(i looove it) but i`d like to know if it is a time bomb.

[Eric Fletcher S.O.C.]

I just found this out:

No component on the G70 or G50 is made from 5052.

 

5052 is not heat-treatable, but it is capable of being work hardened. ie the -32 after the 5052-32 callout.

 

5052 has near identical stiffness properties than other common aluminums. (ie 1100, 3003, 6063, 6061, or 7075). It is mainly in the yield properties of the material that effects its end strength after it is bent.

 

 

You sure you want to stand by that Jerry?

 

Work hardening has nothing to do with strength or ductility, just the surface state.

 

5052 is FAR from having the stake stiffness as 6061 or 7075, in fact 7075 is almost twice the strength and stiffness of 5052

[Jerry Holway]

I don’t want to go there, but here are some facts:

 

First and foremost: There are no parts made from 5052 in any of the G arms. None. You can’t extrude it. It’s used mainly for sheet metal. So I'm not sure why anyone cares about this metal in relation to the G-arms. Curious.

 

If anyone cares, here is some info – isn’t the web wonderful?

 

Here's a reference to common extrusion materials.

http://www.engineersedge.com/extrusion.htm

 

As for the H32 in 5052-H32, here's a link that describes how aluminum is designated. http://www.alcotec.com/us/en/solutions/-Understanding-the-Aluminum-Alloy-Designation-System.cfm

 

Last, here's a link that you can use to look up multiple material specs. If you check out the various aluminums, you will notice that all share similar modulus of elasticity.

http://matweb.com/

[Eric Fletcher S.O.C.]

I don’t want to go there, but here are some facts:

 

First and foremost: There are no parts made from 5052 in any of the G arms. None. You can’t extrude it. It’s used mainly for sheet metal. So I'm not sure why anyone cares about this metal in relation to the G-arms. Curious.

 

 

Glad you decided to skip the first result of a google search as that happens to be from Kaiser Aluminum, maybe you've heard of them? One of the worlds largest aluminum suppliers. They supply aluminum to Boeing and Aribus for airplanes and to car manufactures like Mercedes Benz along with many other companies worldwide

 

5052 as an extrusion material

 

Here is their callout for 5052 extrusion billet

 

and this is their extruded tubing

 

So it sounds like you should let Kaiser Aluminum know that they are doing it all wrong since according to you 5052 is mainly for sheet metal and can't be extruded.

 

I'll consider your other "Facts" in the same light as your assertions about 5052

[Jerry Holway]

regardless, there is no 5052 in the G-50 and G70 arms.... so....

 

give it a rest

[Eric Fletcher S.O.C.]

regardless, there is no 5052 in the G-50 and G70 arms.... so....

 

give it a rest

 

 

Considering your previous answer I don't really believe you

[Jerry Holway]

too bad about what you choose to believe....

 

BTW, there is a big difference between extruded billets of aluminum (stock) and extrusions pushed thru complex dies....

[Eric Fletcher S.O.C.]

too bad about what you choose to believe....

 

BTW, there is a big difference between extruded billets of aluminum (stock) and extrusions pushed thru complex dies....

 

 

Jerry, extruded billet stock is what you heat up to push thru complex dies. its what the extruder gets from the foundry

[Alan Rencher]

GIVE IT A REST! No need for an aluminum dick measuring contest.

[RonBaldwin]

He said dick!

[David M. Aronson]

Mac is so much better than PC! Wait that's what we're talking about here, right? Two things that do the same thing, each with weird obnoxious fan bases arguing that the other one sucks and theirs is the best.

[Jerry Holway]

 

 

I’ve been working in Kuala Lumpur, looking for better extrusion material in Chinatown. Here is some, but I don't know the alloy (they did not speak English). Seemed pretty strong! They also had some grey combination carbon fiber, bamboo, durian, and fiberglass tubing (see photo) that had some cool properties; I’m bringing some home for testing.

 

Re the Kaiser reference:

1. Kaiser Aluminum's website states, "Seamless and drawn seamless tube can be created from the following alloy selections: 1100, 2024, 3003, 5052, 6061, 6063, 7050, 7075. Extruded structural tubing can be produced from the following alloys: 6061, 6063." Notice how 5052 is not used as an extruded structural tube. Could it be that it cannot produce complex shapes, or could it be that it is not capable of being work hardened after being formed? Maybe it can simply be that 5052 cannot be a viable alloy choice when offered alloys like 6063 or 6061, which both are more cost effective and offer better mechanical properties. Perhaps???

 

2. In the same reference, Kaiser Aluminum states that 5052 can be used to create a "Seamless and drawn seamless tube..." There is a huge difference between drawn and extruded tubing. Perhaps that’s the confusion here?

 

3. Extruded billet is not formed with the same process as a complex hollow cavity extrusion. Typical, extruded billet is formed with a single die, and for complex hollow shapes two dies are needed. Yes, extrusion billet is used as the base material for more complex extruding, but it is also used for drawing, and for machining. Just because a billet is offered in 5052 does not imply that it is a suitable material for a complex extrusions. If it is, can someone please cite an example?

 

Another reference to check:

 

http://machinedesign.com/article/smart-ways-to-design-with-aluminum-extrusions-0817

This is an article written by James Sanderson, the Technical Director of Extruded Products at Kaiser Aluminum, where he states the most common aluminum choices for extrusion, as well as the usefulness of 6061 and 6063 when compared to 5052.

 

Here are two more sites showing common alloys offered for extrusion.

 

http://www.capalex.co.uk/downloads/CommonAlloys.pdf

http://www.midstal.com/sft334/aluminum_extrusion_alloys.pdf

 

Check any aluminum extruder and see what alloys they extrude. Go ahead and ask about 5052.

 

Also, I did not ask for this; Eric made an inaccurate statement about why Larry chose the PRO arm on Hugo, then went on about the materials used in the G-arms (inaccurately,again) and in a private email to me, challenged me to support what I had said., and strangely, claims to know a lot about the properties and uses of aluminum alloys. Curious.

 

BTW,the PRO arm is a very good arm and I've never said otherwise.

 

I'm resting now.

[Phil Thomas]

Hi,

 

Well I've recently got my G-50 back from LA having the performance upgrade, so thought I'd report my initial findings, firstly thanks has to go to Danny and Robin at Tiffen International for sorting it all out for me including all the import/export legal stuff. If any UK/European operators want it done, just give them a call/email.

 

First thing you notice when you get it back is that the bearings have changed, shocker!! But I mean noticeably, the black (and in my case surface rusting) bolts are gone and replaced with bigger silver one. See photo attached (sorry about the poor camera phone quality). So I guess this is why they need to do it at the factory and it takes a while as it looks like they have to re-model parts of the arm to get these in.

 

Now the important bit, it's performance. It's definitely improved!! I've only had chance for limited testing with a relatively light camera load, under 6kg, so it's not been used to it full potential and obviously it's been several weeks since I used my old arm so I can't directly A-B them. But originally when I was reading this thread I tested my old arm with some slow moves and faster moves walking towards and away from a brick wall and circling a cone which was raised so the top was at head height. Now these showed up some footsteps and random bobbing every so often as it was clear to see how the horizontal lines of the brick wall moved relative to the frame, same with the top of the cone which I tried to keep just under top of frame. Now with the upgraded arm it is definitely a lot easier to keep the relative distance between the cone and top of frame the same. Same for walking in and out on the wall, no random bobbing. Now it's just down to operating technique to make sure there aren't any footsteps (see other thread on walking I guess).

 

Hope this helps,

Phil