Pro Atlas/Titan vs. G-50X/G70x

[Evrim KAYA]

I don’t think an Epic or even Blackmagic cine package can be flown with the same canister set as the Alexa or even Alexa + Codex.

 

Changing the canisters is not hard work but it still is work.

 

BUT,

 

It is very nice to have two different approaches on this instrument at the top manufacturers.

 

Let’s stop comparing them to each other and start discussing how to get top performance out of each arm. Not because it’s a faux-pas but because it has been done to death!

 

I long for topics which we can discuss performance comparing of different canister sets for the same load on Pro Arm or different ride-iso settings to use with G-series arms.

[Jens Piotrowski SOC]

"I don’t think an Epic or even Blackmagic cine package can be flown with the same canister set as the Alexa or even Alexa + Codex."

 

I meant professional cameras like the Alexa , Epic, Arricams, Panavision,... And yes you can fly all of those with 2 blue and 2 black canisters.

 

BTW, the Pro ARM is very forgiving when it comes to load and its response. It does not have a ride adjustment and It does not need one.

 

BTW you cam fly the ARM with 2 canisters only if you need to.

[Jerry Holway]

Jens-

 

A small point of fact: The G series arms don't need a ride/response (isoelastic) adjustment - The G-40 did not have an adjustment and worked just fine.

 

With the adjustment built in, however, an operator has more choices about how his/her arm will behave, and can fine tune it (or not) as desired, without tools.

 

With the adjustment built in, it is possible to set or tune one section of the arm up poorly relative to the other section, so it does take some initial work to adjust the arms.

 

Choices do require a bit of thought and time. I personally like the benefit in performance (setting the iso my way), but certainly the PRO arm works very well.

 

Jerry

[Bryant Swanstrom]

I successfully flew epic one day, alexa the next and bmcc the day after that all on two blacks and two blues.

 

Is it a little more work to use an allen wrench? I guess...

 

I keep the allen wrench in my back pocket when I have the rig on so I can make adjustments on the fly.

[Alec Jarnagin SOC]

Two Black and two Blue Springs have lived in my arm for longer than I can remember. Yes, I use a wrench and it is a non-issue.

[RonBaldwin]

So many are afraid of an allen wrench. Like others have mentioned, 2 black and 2 blue csnisters will fly 90% of the cameras we usually deal with...only 2 need to be adjusted, not all 4 so I am confused why so many are thinking it's such a big deal?

 

That being said, I have flown the G70 and liked it very much. I personally think the pro arm requires less maintenance and might be less susceptible to damage simply because less is exposed to the elements/whatever. Customer service has proven to be a non-issue as well.

 

I always thought the arm vs arm thing was a bit silly. It's like offroaders arguing about which truck will be better when it's mostly the driver anyways. Fly what you got. Pay the rent, and be happy you have one of the coolest jobs there is.

[Alec Jarnagin SOC]

Spot on Ron, as always.

[Robert Starling SOC]

Tiffen has done a very good job of promoting one of the features of their arms (no-tools) by creating the "Tool Boogie Man". I remember an instructor at the SOA workshop warning our class of "frightening the talent" on-set if we were to pull out the "Tool Boogie Man". To be clear, that's my wording for their reference to it, not their actual words. You can't blame them for selling what they have in features since at the time they definitely were not competitive in performance compared to the PRO arm.

 

I bought into the no tools hype early-on and ignored even demoing a perfectly good PRO arm owned by NFL Studios. At least until my G50 was BANNED by the NFL Director because I could do a slow tango dolly shot easy with the PRO arm and none of the other two ops there including myself could do it with the G50.

 

Frankly, I don't have to futz with my PRO arm all the time, nor did I need to with the G50. Pretty much I set it and forget it and make a minor tweak in seconds as needed with knob or tool.

 

So far, no humans or animals have been harmed or frightened by the use of that single T-handle 5/32 allen wrench and not a moment of time has been lost on set in the process.

 

No tools is simply a feature of their product that they rightfully are able to use to sell against arms that require an allen wrench. A feature is not always a benefit.

 

Robert

[Jameson Johnson]

Wow, thanks everybody for all the input. I didn't really mean for this to become a Pro/Tiffen debate. I really was looking for feedback specifically on the X arms, and how they compared since they've been updated. I see a lot about Pro this, Tiffen that, but not much referencing the new arms.

 

Perhaps I should have phrased my question differently. Can anyone speak to the performance of the G50/70 vs the G50x/70x arms? It seems in all that both the Tiffen arms and the Pro arms perform superbly under almost every condition. The complaints, perhaps catalyst for the PRO/Tiffen debates, was that in extremely slow tracking moves footsteps would translate through the arm. While disputed by many, it seems to be a factor for some. I was curious if this had been improved by the X series. I left it as a broad topic hoping that this wouldn't be the only focal point, but it's turned into yet another Pro/Tiffen debate... and now a changing of the guard. I really didn't mean to cause all this trouble.

[Twojay Dhillon]

Has anybody, honestly, ever had anybody say anything to them on-set about pulling the t-handle out to make a minor adjustment? This seems like a serious bit of Steadicam-urban-myth.

 

I prefer 4 blues, but if I have a heavier setup, I switch two blues out for 2 black cans before I get to set. Simple.

[Lars Erik]

Wow, thanks everybody for all the input. I didn't really mean for this to become a Pro/Tiffen debate. I really was looking for feedback specifically on the X arms, and how they compared since they've been updated. I see a lot about Pro this, Tiffen that, but not much referencing the new arms.

 

Perhaps I should have phrased my question differently. Can anyone speak to the performance of the G50/70 vs the G50x/70x arms? It seems in all that both the Tiffen arms and the Pro arms perform superbly under almost every condition. The complaints, perhaps catalyst for the PRO/Tiffen debates, was that in extremely slow tracking moves footsteps would translate through the arm. While disputed by many, it seems to be a factor for some. I was curious if this had been improved by the X series. I left it as a broad topic hoping that this wouldn't be the only focal point, but it's turned into yet another Pro/Tiffen debate... and now a changing of the guard. I really didn't mean to cause all this trouble.

 

JJ, I can't speak for the PRO arms, as I've never tried the system. But I own the original G-70 series arms, and yes, sometimes I could see my own steps. At the time I thought it was my technique, God knows, it could still have been. I've been doing steadicam since 2006. So I'm nowhere near the experience of many of the ops here on this forum.

 

But I recently upgraded my arm, and Tiffen installed the new X series system on my arm. According to Jerry, it won't perform as well as the original new X series arms, but very close. I'm very pleased with the results, and I haven't seen any steps yet. Worked last night on a show, with a slow 80 seconds shot, and nobody could see any steps.

 

Other than that, I think Charles made a very intelligent point. Stop this pointless Tiffen vs PRO vs whatever debate. I know I've been fed up with it, probably many more also. All the high-end systems are exactly that, high-end. Lets start talking about our profession again as performers, not what gear we choose to use to tell the story.

 

LE

[Joel San Juan]

Hi,

 

I currently have the Pro (before i knew it was called the Titan) and am really really happy with it.

I used to have the Master arm and the benefit, like the G series, is to tweak quickly on your way back to 'one'.

I got to test out the older G70 arm during a 30 day shoot in a humid jungle in Asia and it flew very effortlessly.

I did not see any 'bounce' even in close 85mm slow shots.

The only problem I had was maintaining a dirt and rust free arm if I didn't have the rain cover on all the time.

The same problem that led me to sell my old Master arm. The environment in which i work in alot affected my decision

mainly. With the Pro, you can just hose it down. I almost never use the rain cover these days.

 

At IBC and Cinec this year, I got to try out both the Atlas and the Tiffen X series and i was blown away at the

beauty of both arms. I tried out slow walks and running shots. The biggest difference I found is in the boom range.

But you can always work your way around it. Otherwise, like any other advice, find a few ops around your area, give

them a call and ask to try it out if possible.

 

Good luck with your decision :)

 

J.

[JobScholtze]

Robert is right. Its made bigger then it really is.

I set my pro arm once in the morning. Changing the lens isnt effecting much. And if it das, i can still fly it or take the t handle out of my vest.

Its really not an issue, at all. I have flown the g70 and before that the g50 for over 4 years. While the knob is a nice feature, i dont miss it, while i was affraid i would. Not a moment becose its not an issue. I have 2 blacks 2 blues that fly's is all. I only used 4 blacks for a 3d feature.

 

I am not gonna talk wich arm is better, i just know wich arm i prefer, and thats just me. Same as sled,vest and whatever. The big brands all make cool stuff, hence why we mix them in our gear. The way you mix it dasnt have to be my way. Try, taste, mix again, try, taste etc. Spend a lot of cash and finally when you have your mix,

 

 

 

 

 

You start over again ;-)

[Erwin Landau]

Looks like I am a little late to the show...

 

The other thread is already closed... Oh well...

 

I didn't contribute as of late to the forum because I didn't have anything to say, really. Had not touched a rig in sometime and was not involved in any production, so what was I supposed to write about? I just did my maintenance and house keeping and stayed away. I also got bored and worn out by all the staff that goes on behind the forum (Online mudslinging is nothing in comparison). As I was always involved with what was going on with "the next new thing" I also couldn't or wouldn't comment on posts. A lot of bitting the tongue and moving on. It's a curse to know to much sometimes...

 

Mudslinging was always going on here sometimes it's warranted and sometimes not... but it's always felt as unfair by the people that are on the receiving end, no exemptions. You can't change that. It's also the new way that people assume a Online persona that sometimes has nothing to do with the real person. You can be the nicest person but it does not translate to the internet. Good or Bad... it happens. As an example, That was the reason that we insisted on real names. Some people still have a problem with that... go figure. You have to stand up to what you say with full name. Many couldn't or wouldn't and they are no longer a part of this forum. (If you are the fifteen's person that week to register with a phony name and it's stated in the membership guidelines not to and you still refuse to change it? What do you expect? Nice words?) Any new moderator... beware stupidity is rampant everywhere! I always expect more but always get disappointed by people...

 

There were several Steadicam related sites that had forums in the past and there are still a couple around, but none is as successful (with members and the amount of posts) and has stood the test of time like this one. I started with the old and now defunct AOL Folders. You had to be an AOL subscriber and back then it was the only way to stay in contact and it was there were most of the first generation Ops hung out. Many have moved on and are no longer involved with the craft, others are to busy or by now disillusioned with it... Some just bought a rig and are making movies and couldn't care less about the newest or hottest item... A short while ago I had a conversation with an Op that was doing $100 mio.+ movies and he didn't know what a Gorelock was... (I would love to trade with him in an instant)... he will never post here because he is busy making more movies then to waste his time with gear... he just calls me when something breaks...

 

 

Eric is a dear friend and has been for a long time. So far it was always what you see is what you get with him and that has never changed. He is not always right (I'll pay for that one :) later) and not always refrained in his replies, but they are always genuine and to the point. He very often expressed what most of us just thought. Many people that felt the "wrath" of Eric also had it coming or interpreted a stern comment as an attack. It's the internet, the face is missing to tell you how to interpret the comment. But a lot of people are to sensitive to begin with. I am sure I will get some flack for posting this reply. I took a while back a time off because of the wrath of other members of this forum. They had their opinion, I had facts... didn't make any difference. I was harassed on and off forum... oh well, you put out your neck and somebody will try to get you with it... Get over it. I did.

 

If you want to get everything pre chewed and as nice as possible, go to the manufacturers site. There is no point in a forum that gives you a sole answer from a manufacturer. And if someone is associated with a product he will always be bias towards it. You need sometimes another point of view, even if it's somewhat bias in it's own right (everybody is bias toward something). Every post is written with an agenda and the more different opinions you get, the better picture you will be able to make of the topic in question. If you don't like the response ignore it as most did and still do with my post, it's your right. But don't punish somebody because he says what's on his mind especially if it's the truth. Many can come on and post against it and say it's not like that and it still doesn't makes it the opposite. Most people don't have all the facts how that person came to that conclusion and most will never know.

 

I hope that makes any sense... it's already 2am here...

 

Back to Arms...

 

We are very bias towards the equipment we use, because we use it with a reason and the reason is to make our next mortgage payment or next months rent, a living, etc. Everybody was in the situation when they where let down by a piece of gear and nobody wants to be in that situation again. So you build your kit around parts that work and work well for you. As well as based on developed preferences over a long carrier. So any question about your kit is somewhat emotional and will provoke an emotional response. So when you ask about a certain piece of gear you will get a turmoil that might be peppered with past experiences good or bad and will end with opposite opinions. And sometimes ends with a fist fight... or a steadicam shoot out... it depends...

 

I have been using the PRO arm for the last 10 plus years. I didn't get it by choice but by faith, circumstance, luck (I guess)... my 3A arm was stolen and at the time Cinema Products was in chapter 11 and no product was leaving the factory so the only available Arm at the time was by GPI as concluded by my insurance company. And here we are. Saved my carrier. I was able to work and pay my bills again. At first I was missing my 3A arm, but the feeling went away quite quickly.

 

I tried many Arm's along the way and used them in the field if I thought they were worth while or I already walked away at the trade show. Master, Ultra, ProVid, EFP, Artemis, ActionCam, Gold, Silver, G-series, etc. I almost tried them all... but none really gave me the right feel or the security I needed or wanted or it just felt alien and wrong.

 

Tiffen was very nice and lend me a G70 a couple of years back. I managed to break the ride adjustment within the first 15 minutes I used it on the feature I was on... which didn't infuse me with great confidence. is it a fair assessment to dismiss the arm after 15 minutes? Would it been my only arm on set and would I not had my arm to fall back on... i would have been fired on the spot and no money would have been coming in... so guess for yourself.

 

I tried the G-50X and the G-70X at this years Cinec in Munich. Even though they are a huge improvement and are coming very close to the feel that I got accustomed to from my PRO Arm, it still didn't klick. I guess to many factors were involved, different rig, different Gimbal, different vest (even though I really liked Chris's new vest). It was to many variables. Also it didn't help that the Gimbal from the Shadow, that i was trying, was taking big chunks of flesh out of my left thumb every time the Yoke bumper came close to it. I liked the three section Arm though.

 

The best thing is to get hold of as much different Arms as you can... or in that case get the two Arm that you want to look at and use them side by side... that will tell you all you possibly want to know and go with what feels best to you... and as always keeping in mind the proximity to the manufacturer or service provider as well as the maintenance requirements... sending in my arm for a standard service was always a big no no for me...

 

And don't get me started about tools. I had kip handles on my rig before it was on vogue... and got laugh at, why would I do something like that... it's not safe, it's dangerous, etc... now that everybody has gone tool less, everybody is looking at me like I am from yesterday... there are just pieces of equipment that are as good as they are and man shouldn't screw with them. And sometimes it just shouldn't be tool less. I have yet to find a center post at a trade show that does not goes out of alignment when I do a whip pan... And it's always funny to see the sales people scramble to realign it and explain how it normally doesn't do that...

 

Okay let the flaming begin...

 

So looks like I am out of the job as Moderator... oh well. I can finally post what i really wanted, don't have to hold back and don't have to show any refrain... sounds like fun.

 

Guess see you around,

 

Fly safe,

 

Erwin

[Larry McConkey]

I posted on the G50/G70 - G50X/G70X forum about my experiences to date with several arms if anyone would like to read that. I tried to be as objective as I could. Hoping to test a G70X soon and I will report on that as well...