A Return to Civility

[Afton Grant]

Hey Chris,

 

One of the many things that has always made me feel good to be in this little niche of the entertainment industry is that the Steadicam community doesn't play by those same exclusive, back stabbing, dog eat dog, every man for himself tactics that can be seen in so many other areas of the business. It has always been a welcoming, warm, generous community to a humbling degree. Arguably, this website is the largest online gathering point for operators around the world. Why can't we see that same friendly, mature, constructive dialog here as we would in person? That's all people are asking.

 

Cheers.

[chris fawcett]

Hey Afton,

 

I like the way you put that.

 

Season's greetings, and happy apocalypse,

 

Chris

[Robert Starling SOC]

Welcome to Moderating Afton, Janice and others, thanks for taking on the role as I know it is time consuming.

 

I enjoy the camaraderie here as well and keeping up with friends and colleagues, but that has increasingly been replaced by Facebook which is a better platform in that respect.

 

Where FB falls short and the Steadicam Forum excels is the peer to peer support, technical info and the extensive archives that are an invaluable resource and to some degree a historic perspective and record of our special craft.

 

Civility is fine and good, but not necessarily at the expense of allowing misinformation, shoddy equipment or poor service by manufacturers and others to go unchecked. This SHOULD be the place where operators can speak freely and express their opinions both good and bad. That includes calling manufacturers, service providers and site advertisers to task if that is the case.

 

I'm also an advertiser on this forum and pay $2,400 a year for my banner ad in the sidebar. It would be very very upsetting, frankly sickening to see a negative review of my workshops here and I would prefer a call first and opportunity to make it right if someone had a complaint. By the same token it would be a difficult defense if for instance a dozen people had problems over the course of three years and I failed to respond, repair, refund or try to make them whole in a timely manner. It is Freedom of Speech and with that there's the good, bad and ugly. As an advertiser, would I have a special right to pressure Tim Tyler and the moderators to manipulate negative posts or threads about my workshops if there were any?

 

I believe 100% that the attack on Eric Fletcher was an orchestrated attempt by a forum sponsor to boot one of their most outspoken critics. The cross-section of posters in that thread represent people who have direct and indirect relationships with that sponsor, some of them obviously disclosed and some not. My point is they have a vested interest in restricting negative posts about their products and apparently the influence as an advertiser to do so. The most disgusting thing I've EVER read on this forum was the public mob mentality and public lynching that transpired. All of that should have been handled back-of-house if at all. I made my thoughts known to Tim on it but I never threatened to pull my ads over it even though I gave serious consideration to doing so.

 

Should we expect now that you as Moderators are not entitled to speak your mind and speak strongly in areas and topics where you disagree or believe there is misinformation that dilutes the quality of information people read here? I'd prefer to hear and read your real thoughts and opinions as operators than a watered down "milk-toast" filtered version as a Moderator with your hands tied behind your back or a gag in your mouth.

 

Maybe Moderators / Advertisers / Operators should have separate posting accounts; one with their company affiliation clearly marked and the other as an operator so we know who is who and everyone can speak their mind.

 

Will Demeritt and Chris Flurry made some great points related to "getting some sac" and "it's the film business". This isn't little league football where everyone is coddled, there are no losers and everyone wins so at the end of the day/game we all go home feeling warm and fuzzy.

 

I'm all for respect and civility on the forum. A watered down feel-good social club not so much.

 

Happy Holidays and thanks for listening!

 

Robert

[David M. Aronson]

Civility is fine and good, but not necessarily at the expense of allowing misinformation, shoddy equipment or poor service by manufacturers and others to go unchecked. This SHOULD be the place where operators can speak freely and express their opinions both good and bad. That includes calling manufacturers, service providers and site advertisers to task if that is the case.

No one's being asked to misinform people. What's being asked is to not voice opinions and then state them as facts. What's also being asked is to be respectful to newer members and the questions they have. :)

 

 

I'm also an advertiser on this forum and pay $2,400 a year for my banner ad in the sidebar. It would be very very upsetting, frankly sickening to see a negative review of my workshops here and I would prefer a call first and opportunity to make it right if someone had a complaint. By the same token it would be a difficult defense if for instance a dozen people had problems over the course of three years and I failed to respond, repair, refund or try to make them whole in a timely manner. It is Freedom of Speech and with that there's the good, bad and ugly. As an advertiser, would I have a special right to pressure Tim Tyler and the moderators to manipulate negative posts or threads about my workshops if there were any?[/Quote]

So what about the multible years of arrogance and attacks against other members that have gone unchecked? Would it still be free speach to call someone out on that? :)

 

 

I believe 100% that the attack on Eric Fletcher was an orchestrated attempt by a forum sponsor to boot one of their most outspoken critics. The cross-section of posters in that thread represent people who have direct and indirect relationships with that sponsor, some of them obviously disclosed and some not. My point is they have a vested interest in restricting negative posts about their products and apparently the influence as an advertiser to do so. The most disgusting thing I've EVER read on this forum was the public mob mentality and public lynching that transpired. All of that should have been handled back-of-house if at all. I made my thoughts known to Tim on it but I never threatened to pull my ads over it even though I gave serious consideration to doing so.[/Quote]

Yeah yeah, and 9/11 was an inside job. Until you have proof of a conspiracy, that should probably be handled on the back end. :)

 

Should we expect now that you as a Moderators are not entitled to speak your mind and speak strongly in areas and topics where you disagree or believe there is misinformation that dilutes the quality of information people read here? I'd prefer to hear and read your real thoughts and opinions as operators than a watered down "milk-toast" filtered version as a Moderator with your hands tied behind your back or a gag in your mouth.

I'd love to hear the opinions of moderators if they are expressed as opinions and not stated as facts. It would also be nice if people weren't attacked or berated if they dissagree :)

 

Maybe Moderators / Advertisers / Operators should have separate posting accounts; one with their company affiliation clearly marked and the other as an operator so we know who is who and everyone can speak their mind.[/Quote]

That's actually a pretty good idea. :)

 

Will Demeritt and Chris Flurry made some great points related to "getting some sac" and "it's the film business". This isn't little league football where everyone is coddled, there are no losers and everyone wins so at the end of the day/game we all go home feeling warm and fuzzy.

 

You don't have to water yourself down, just don't be a dick. :)

 

Edit: Tone of post has been misinterpreted. Added smiley faces to make it less formal.

Edited December 21, 2012 by David M. Aronson

[Chris Flurry]

Robert thank you for your eloquent post, I guess I missed the lynching. Ive been busy on a feature out of town and hadn't checked in for awhile. I hadn't realized that Eric had been removed as a Moderator, too bad. Anybody familiar with the politics of selling Steadicams can easily see what's going on here, the conflict of interests are obvious. Lets not forget that there are companies with a huge finical stake in what gets said here. It saddens me to see this forum reduced to a sales platform for a particular manufacture. I'm glad to be getting out of Steadicam

[JobScholtze]

Robert, Chris, amen brothers. Well, say'd. I agree on all points, hence my posts.

[GrantCulwell]

I don't post often but this topic has obviously become a hot one so I figured I'd throw my two cents in.

 

I've read through this thread and I had kept up with thread that started all of this.

 

There seems to be a consistent topic of debating free speech/honesty in this thread. I am all for free speech and an honesty that is quick to the point. However, I don't believe that has to negate a sense of civility. Two of my closest and well respected friends in the industry are Will Demeritt and Brian Freesh. We've had many industry related discussions through the years and there have been times I've been wrong or misinformed. Will and Brian have corrected me in the past and have always done so in a respectful manner. That is not to say they gently held my hand and tenderly walked me through my mistakes, and checked in on my emotion state. They simply said they disagreed and gave examples as to why they saw things differently.

 

That said, I do also agree with Will's point that sometimes people don't behave the way you want them to. Nut up or shut up. If someone here handles things in a way you disagree with, PM them directly and see how it goes. If nothing changes and they continue to disrespect you, take it up to the moderators if need be (or just let it go). I only partially agree with Robert's statement about a lynching. I do think some people saw an opportunity to vent their frustrations and we got off course a little bit. But, I would say that where there is smoke, there's fire. There were too many testimonies of people saying they felt bullied here. I just don't see it as only one sided.

 

I heard a quote recently that I feel has a lot of wisdom to it: Just because you are offended doesn't mean you are right.

 

In regards to accusing Tiffen as to orchestrating a coup to kick Eric off because he gives bad criticism; I think that might be stretching things a bit. Do I think they appreciated negative comments, of course not. Do I think they have that kind of time to try and be a manipulative evil corporation, not at all. I've only had the pleasure of meeting Garrett a few times but he doesn't strike me as the kind of man to have that lack of character. Besides, no one followed Garrett's original post and said they were hurt because Eric said something bad about their Tiffen Gear. The whole gear war that's happened on the forum is kinda stupid to me. Show me your shot. If it's good and production was happy and it enhanced the story, congratulations! Who cares if you are flying GPI, Tiffen, a frankenrig, or Glidecam (ok, I care if you fly glidecam). Btw, I fly Tiffen products and I'm damn proud of it and no, they did not ask me to comment so stop right now with any conspiracy theories.

 

Ok, I'm stepping down from my soapbox.

[Dean Smollar]

Who cares if you are flying GPI, Tiffen, a frankenrig, or Glidecam (ok, I care if you fly glidecam).

 

[Kevin Andrews SOC]

Whoa, I would say it's comments and "know it all" attitudes like David's above that makes vets crazy. Dude, you're in high school, stop telling Starling how the business works.

[Robert Starling SOC]

In regards to accusing Tiffen as to orchestrating a coup to kick Eric off because he gives bad criticism

 

I wasn't referring to Tiffen.

 

Robert

[GrantCulwell]

In regards to accusing Tiffen as to orchestrating a coup to kick Eric off because he gives bad criticism

 

I wasn't referring to Tiffen.

 

Robert

 

 

 

Then my apologies for the assumption.

[Lawrence Karman]

In regards to accusing Tiffen as to orchestrating a coup to kick Eric off because he gives bad criticism

 

I wasn't referring to Tiffen.

 

Robert

 

 

Jim Bartell, the puppet master! I knew it!

[Alec Jarnagin SOC]

I will simply say this.... Static, static, screech, [insert sound of Peanut adult characters talking here].....

 

This message has been edited by a Steadicam Forum Moderator as they are omnipotent spell wielding evil-doers who serve nasty organizations like SMERCH and SPECTRE. They suport all conspiracies. We have never been to the moon. The world is flat. Fourteen hours is a reasonable work day. Now, your brain will listen to this message....

 

"Lighten up."

 

That is all. Carry on.

[Sanjay Sami]

I will simply say this....

"Lighten up."

 

That is all. Carry on.

 

Amen ... Merry Christmas

[Matteo Quagliano]

Eric threated me bad (as I think he did with pretty much every newbies on here) but I feel sorry for what happened... and I think Eric share an amount of knowledge here that some newbies don't fully understand and if they feel bad for some harshness well as said before they should leave the biz... c'mon it's not for ladies nor babies... grow up and behave like men... Can't believe that really happened... I asked in another thread and I got confirmation here, he was kicked out, no words, really can't believe...

 

ps: it's been a year since I saw Tiffen rigs sold for silly prices here on the forum (I own one, no names but prices $19.000 for a clipper and $11.000 for an Archer1), more or less from when they come out with the new X series claiming no super slow walk problem. don't know for you but for me Eric was a rock on this subject and kicked ass no matter what. My respect. Keep making money guys, it's your job. Good luck.