Cinetronic Image Issue

[Afton Grant]

I'd like to argue a bit for both sides here. For the record, I've always found Chris to be prompt in replying to my communications. If we can't figure out a solution over the phone/text he'll usually just say to send it in and he'll fix it.

 

At the same time, I can absolutely understand the frustration of someone just starting out, with a fixed budget, trying to piece together the best kit they can for their money, only to have issues with a key piece of equipment. Those of us who are fortunate enough to have backups to everything should try to remember the time when we didn't. In addition to our limited budgets, we also had a small but growing knowledge about the gear, and we relied heavily upon the advice of those who were more experienced and had that knowledge we needed.

 

Eric, I've seen you many times answer quickly and bluntly to the [paraphrased] question, "Which monitor should I buy?" with simply, "Cinetronic." Now coming from someone with as much experience as you, to someone relatively young in the business, that answer carries a lot of weight. Never once did you qualify your answer with the follow up information, "But be aware of the following list of issues still being worked out...."

 

I'm not trying to point fingers or take a side, I'm simply trying to empathize with both.

 

Regarding shipping in general, for any piece of equipment, I personally believe if I pay for an item in full, and it does not perform as was advertised when I paid for it, the manufacturer should cover shipping until it does. This goes for defects in the original parts, as well as updates to the software to fix/add features that it was advertised to have when I paid for it. If all original features are active and the unit is performing reliably, and then upgrades or updates are released, and I want them.... then I should cover the shipping. If I crash while running and crack the screen, I should cover shipping.

 

Since Preston was used as an example, yes, they will not cover shipping for future updates or if something breaks on a unit I've had for a few years. However, if I were to purchase an MDR from them for $6,000 and it arrived not working, I'm confident they would provide me with a FedEx number until it did - and possibly even ship me out a loaner in the meantime.

 

Concerning the Cinetronic specifically, there are still a few key issues and features that have yet to be worked out. There are software updates rolling out every so often fixing a thing or two at a time, but I know myself and a number of other people are unable to install those updates ourselves. FedEx both ways each time there is an update will add up very quickly - and I live in the US. I don't feel it's productive to suggest to someone to "just deal with it".

 

Chris's team has undertaken a monumental task. They've come further than any of us would have expected a few years ago when he first showed up. For that, I am thankful. I don't yet have the monitor of my dreams, but it is getting closer all the time. The communication and customer relations issues seem to be more than just a couple isolated incidents. Chris, perhaps a customer service rep would be a worthy investment at this point. Someone to always answer phones and return emails. They don't need to provide an immediate solution. They just need to be able to listen, and let people know their message will reach the right person.

[chris bangma]

This wasnt addressed to you, but some other lurkers, who know who they are :-) It was a rant in general.

and I am quite offended that you would imply I sit around on my arse posting negative comments on this forum,

[chris bangma]

As for communication, yes we know this is an issue. Many days Mike and I are stretched pretty thin, running around the building, with neither of us near phones. We often are working at the machines as well, which are loud enough to make phone calls impractical. Sometimes we both realize we have been at the office for 6-7 hours, and havent even had a chance to switch the computer on and answer emails. This is why many people get short emails typed on iphones while we are assembling and machining monitors.

 

As for the time these things take, I know it is frustrating for everyone, and that things have gone slower than anyone has liked. We try to control as much of the process as we can, and do as much in house as we can, to keep things in check. Its the outside companies that you inevitably have to deal with that are the stumbling block. If you are frustrated with the length of time things take, multiply that by the 100+ Gen2 monitors we have sold, and you get an insight into what we deal with.

 

The biggest problem is I try to be optimistic about when things will be done, and believe the hardware and software engineers when they say how long something will take. Then there is also the day to day supplier issues which are always fun to deal with. We had sent 25 screens in for bonding, and the bonding company rejected 20 of them. This then needed to be sent back to the manufacturer for evaluation, which of course found nothing wrong, so the screens were sent back to the bonding company again. Of course by the time they get back, the company is busy, and cant get them dont for another week. In the end, it was a 4 week delay for absolutely nothing. These are just some of the daily challenges, and weekly drama.

 

As other have pointed out, this is the unfortunate norm for this industry. Suppliers with long lead times, components that are never in stock, and shipments that dont arrive on time. Thankfully we are in the home stretch and can finish these up and get everyone up to date.

[Jens Piotrowski SOC]

I'd like to argue a bit for both sides here. For the record, I've always found Chris to be prompt in replying to my communications. If we can't figure out a solution over the phone/text he'll usually just say to send it in and he'll fix it.

 

At the same time, I can absolutely understand the frustration of someone just starting out, with a fixed budget, trying to piece together the best kit they can for their money, only to have issues with a key piece of equipment. Those of us who are fortunate enough to have backups to everything should try to remember the time when we didn't. In addition to our limited budgets, we also had a small but growing knowledge about the gear, and we relied heavily upon the advice of those who were more experienced and had that knowledge we needed.

 

Eric, I've seen you many times answer quickly and bluntly to the [paraphrased] question, "Which monitor should I buy?" with simply, "Cinetronic." Now coming from someone with as much experience as you, to someone relatively young in the business, that answer carries a lot of weight. Never once did you qualify your answer with the follow up information, "But be aware of the following list of issues still being worked out...."

 

I'm not trying to point fingers or take a side, I'm simply trying to empathize with both.

 

Regarding shipping in general, for any piece of equipment, I personally believe if I pay for an item in full, and it does not perform as was advertised when I paid for it, the manufacturer should cover shipping until it does. This goes for defects in the original parts, as well as updates to the software to fix/add features that it was advertised to have when I paid for it. If all original features are active and the unit is performing reliably, and then upgrades or updates are released, and I want them.... then I should cover the shipping. If I crash while running and crack the screen, I should cover shipping.

 

Since Preston was used as an example, yes, they will not cover shipping for future updates or if something breaks on a unit I've had for a few years. However, if I were to purchase an MDR from them for $6,000 and it arrived not working, I'm confident they would provide me with a FedEx number until it did - and possibly even ship me out a loaner in the meantime.

 

Concerning the Cinetronic specifically, there are still a few key issues and features that have yet to be worked out. There are software updates rolling out every so often fixing a thing or two at a time, but I know myself and a number of other people are unable to install those updates ourselves. FedEx both ways each time there is an update will add up very quickly - and I live in the US. I don't feel it's productive to suggest to someone to "just deal with it".

 

Chris's team has undertaken a monumental task. They've come further than any of us would have expected a few years ago when he first showed up. For that, I am thankful. I don't yet have the monitor of my dreams, but it is getting closer all the time. The communication and customer relations issues seem to be more than just a couple isolated incidents. Chris, perhaps a customer service rep would be a worthy investment at this point. Someone to always answer phones and return emails. They don't need to provide an immediate solution. They just need to be able to listen, and let people know their message will reach the right person.

Afton,

 

maybe it's worth it investing in a used Netbook that runs windows XP, you can get those for under $100, cheaper than the shipping back and forth...

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WHITE-ACER-ASPIRE-ONE-ZG5-NETBOOK-LAPTOP-1GB-160GB-WIN-XP-HOME-ATOM-1-60GHZ-/141070143140?pt=Laptops_Nov05&hash=item20d86f8ea4

 

 

re: battery plates

 

I use soft side velcro on all battery plates, oem or not

 

Re: not having money for a back-up

 

you can pick up a used Cinemonitor 3 SBL for around $500

 

Re: shipping

 

USPS medium flat rate box international to Australia is only $60 (6-10 days), I'm sure it's similar in AUS,

 

as Nike would say "Just do It"

 

...and maybe not everybody who starts out needs to have the latest and greatest of everything and then find themselves maxed out...

 

and btw nobody "needs" an HD-SDI signal on their monitor to frame up a shot....just saying

 

Re: Cinetronic

 

my issues where always addressed in a timely manner, 2 things remain to be worked out , signal recognition (PSF) and the level sensor (coming soon), to make it whole for me...

 

out of cents now

[Lawrence Karman]

 

 

I don't feel it's productive to suggest to someone to "just deal with it".

 

 

 

Really? Regarding putting Velcro on a battery plate? You're right. Just keep complaining and do nothing. That will get one far in life.

[quincy paglaro]

I had a few issues out of the gate and I mentioned them here in the forum but they were all resolved right away. I have been super stoked on the performance of my monitor.

 

Thanks Cinetronics, keep up the good work.

 

And, I would rather be sitting on my ass but instead I have to work.

[Eric Fletcher S.O.C.]

Afton,

 

FYI "Cinetronic" is STILL my answer. it's a better monitor than anything out there as Jens said it has two (soon to be one) small issue, PsF and I can get around that. The level will be out very soon.

 

The other issues in this thread (Ab plates, really?) are all a per person type of thing

[Justin Besser]

if you would like to read between the lines, my issue is about communication..

I understand each person will have a different experience, this is simply been mine; I am coming at this purely from a customer point of view, I have no personal connection to chris or mike, no business link apart from buying a monitor. I did my initial research, and decided this would be the best solution for me, it was expensive, but I felt the extra initial investment would reap its benefits down the line, maybe I should of gone with 2 less specced, cheaper monitors, but why? the feedback I had read was this was an excellent company producing a monitor that couldn't be matched in terms of features, I had made the assumption each person giving their opinion was coming from a non-bias point of view, "the customer"..
looking at each piece of gear to purchase when buying a first setup, do I think, maybe I should sacrifice on the quality, simply to buy 2 of each, so I have a backup ... do you do that with every purchase you make ? why specifically with the monitor? everything is susceptible to fault, manufacturing, accident & element related faults .. I reasonably felt by investing in the best piece of gear for the job, my backup would be a good line of communication and support if something did go wrong..
each of the issues that have been brought up were done so after a communication breakdown in me dealing with cinetronic on a one-one basis .. yes, the battery plate can be sorted with a simple solution of velcro, but I was informed that I would be sent a new battery plate (by having an initial response like "I'm sorry about this concern, play is inherent in a portion of battery plates, and the industry standard solution is to place 3 tabs of velcro onto the plate to minimise play" would of been more appropriate), RE; tally was told there would be a possible local engineer to help fix without having to send back, there were other concerns too, then to have them firstly ignored when I asked about the timing of the solutions, and finally after multiple emails and a significant amount of time (leaving me in limbo, shall I send it back? is there a local guy? etc) to tell me to finally send it back, thats when the other image issues (what this thread is initally about) started to arise, and then it became a fact of this monitor is faulty on a few more levels than I am willing to accept as just being my issue to deal with at my expense ..

I purchased a specific product for a specific job and its requirements. I bought it under the impression this was a generation 2 product from a niche company dealing with and understanding steadicam operators , it comes with a premium price tag. I did this from the other side of the world based on opinions in this forum which I have always read as a source of information, I do not have the luxury of lots of disposable cashflow to stem every single issue that may arise, some issues will be dealt with in a very "mcguyver" way and some by purchasing backups, I also do not have the luxury of local service for nearly anything nor years of experience and contacts .. but If I deal with a company at this level I do expect an open, clear and honest line of communication..
that is what my issue is about, the frustrations expressed in this thread are the by-product of the lacking communication.

everything could of been sorted by me sucking it up and buying a 2nd hand monitor, paying for the shipping back to cinetronic (yes, may be $60 for an uninsured, un-trackable package back to the USA, which takes in my experience 10+ days x2 ways, or the $300 for the 'standard' of fedex), waiting an undefined amount of time to have the unknown problem dealt with, along with ignoring the way my issue as the customer was dealt with by the lack of support .. thats what I feel I have garnished from the responses here, this all for a monitor that is less than 6 months old and I didn't create the fault..

take this if you want as a new operator in the industry having a "bitch" (thanks Eric), and being stupid enough to sit on my primary without having some sort of backup. But each person is entitled to their opinion, and entitled to inform other people of their experience so the next 'customer' (who may also be a newer op from a far away place) can make a well informed decision about what direction they will take ..

[Jens Piotrowski SOC]

Justin,

 

"if you would like to read between the lines, my issue is about communication.."

 

I guess so,

 

but you keep bringing up the battery plate and the tally issue, both have easy fixes and if you would have done your research before purchasing, you would have found out, that the PRO tally is wired trough the 8 pin Lemo and the Cinetronic tally is not. There is no standard, simple as that. The solution: a break out cable y-cable, or you find a local electronics guy that opens up the Cinetronic and hard-wires the tally connector cables to the 8 pin Lemo to match the PRO version. As Chris said, the are multiple versions out there and I'm sure Chris would have told you, if you would have asked him that question before you purchased the monitor. Either way it's a simple fix. Move 2 wires from one connector to another.

 

The battery plate, I have yet to see a battery plate with no play, they are not engineered for that, so I always use velcro to fill the gap/space, done.

 

http://gpiprosystems.com/Cine-Live.pdf for reference

 

You also mentioned that the package is not "insured", are you telling me that you do not have insurance for your equipment that would cover the loss or damage? I would reconsider that.

 

Lastly, the display issue. Yes, obviously a defect that needs to be repaired under warranty and while the monitor is there, the tally can be custom wired for you as well, I'm sure.

 

 

Products from different manufacturers do not always work together well, metric vs imperial, ntsc vs pal, 120V vs 230 V, you name it, research is your friend...I've learned my lessons and paid for it a couple of times over the years...

[Frederic Chamberland]

I just sold my Cinetronic Gen2 recently. I told the buyer why I was selling it.

Here is my story;

I am among the very first ones to have put my faith/money in this company (Gen1 serial was 007 and Gen2 is 009...) so I can say without a doubt that I really wanted Cinetronic to succeed. While the Gen1 was so close to perfection, I had to go for the Gen2 when available : smaller footprint and upgradable level were enough for me to upgrade : and that's when the $h1t hit the fan ; I have experienced every glitch mentioned here and more (PSF/PSI, menus going wild, video input randomly scanning while shooting, firmware upgrades impossible....) . All of those glitches were frustrating but when the screen lit up and I had an image, it was so beautiful and crisp, I forgot all about the problems.

Then, one day off , I tried upgrading the monitor by myself : OMG, this was by far the most excruciating upgrade experience in my life . I never could do it, and I even got the help of many set geeks with no results. And sorry Jen, but your suggestion to invest in a used notebook to upgrade that monitor is just sad and trying to avoid a reality: the firmware update process on the Cinetronic is at best an alfa version .

Anyway, when that upgrade did not work, I said to myself, that's ok, I have to send the monitor in for the heat sink upgrade anyway later, I'l live for now.

Then it happened : power the monitor up; no image, no nothing, just a small icon appearing in the bottom corner with no buttons responding but the power one (sent a video of the problem to Chris about it). I'm on set and do what anyone would do in those situations; you grab a 500$ on-board LCD from one of the studio cameras, and velcroed it on top of the Cinetronic . At that point, I'm just mesmerized at that fantastic 4000$ weight plate on my sled. I email Chris asking for a loaner, but they had none, not even a Gen1 ... Only solution is to send it back. It's thursday and I'm shooting nights, I woke up early friday morning to mail the monitor; It's at Cinetronic's headquarters the next monday at 11AM... then , nothing. not a phone call, not an email, not a text message for 5 days ! I emailed Chris on saturday and he responded that they will ship it back on Monday. And he does; using the slowest method at UPS; expedited.... I received the monitor the next FRIDAY ! From them receiving the monitor and me getting it back : 12 days!! And that was for an urgent repair, so urgent I needed a loaner. That turnaround thing was the icing on the cake.

So I received the monitor back and plugged it on my sled, new firmware installed, buttons are much more responsive and screen is always as sharp. Menus have been cleaned and much more precise : everything I expected 2 months before. It was all there: I powered it off, put it back in it's bubble wrap and now sold it dirt cheap so I can move on and sleep at night. It's too little, too late for me; I have much more things to do than stressing about a monitor or the service attached to it.

In short, I think that Gen2 monitor should not have been released in the wild so early, it was not ready. Chris was always really fast answering every email regarding my troubles for the monitor and I was ready to live with a couple of future firmwares updates ; where they failed miserably is when I needed them the most : the customer service . Not having loaners on the shelves and having a 12 day turnaround is not acceptable , all of this with no communications.

I read the stories of John Perry and other satisfied customers of Cinetronic and I feel I was very unlucky.

For once in my life, I should have waited before buying a product : I'm pretty sure that the new firmware is much more stable . And selling that monitor was the last thing I wanted to do. That monitor "burned" me and my crew too many times.

Sorry, but I'm out of the game.

Cheers,