The ALIEN / Alien Revolution - All about...

[Afton Grant]

And for the record I do not feel the moderators should be allowed to post. Most know what I am talking about.

 

They should either moderate OR post - not both. It seems like this forum is personal ego trips for many ops and not a lot else.

Their biased views are boring and transparent.

 

I had a response to this, but it has nothing to do with Howard or the AR so I posted it in a different forum:

 

http://www.steadicamforum.com/forums/index...?showtopic=4760

[Howard J Smith]

Hi Afton

 

How are you?

 

Nice post - and I am in total agreement - your last line summed it all up perfectly for me -

 

"A man should be measured by the content of his posts, not by the title he bears!"

Sadly this is also the point, most of the posts recently aimed at myslef and Chris (when he was not deleted!) are far from the ideal set forward - hence my posting.

 

I want to get this forum back as it was when I first used to come all those years ago, it was fun, full of great help and coments.

I no longer see any of that here, or the wonderful people who used to post - I mean Larry does not even post anymore - this is one person I sorely miss, which is a HUGE shame for all the 'newbies' and working ops out there (of which I am still one).

 

If the view is split re the moderators then lets start a Poll and see who agrees?

Basically - lets cut the BS and get this forum back on track. :)

 

Keep up the great work on your site and looking forward to seeing you soon.

All the best

Howard

[Alec Jarnagin SOC]

Howard,

 

On so many levels you?ve managed to offend. Your comments on moderators and your suggestion that we not be allowed to post was so shocking that I actually took a few days away from the forum to cool off! I seem to recall that you were happy with my selection to the moderating team when I last saw you at NAB (2006). We?ve always had a very civilized relationship and I have certainly never wished you any ill-will so your gross generalizations of moderators is off mark. If I publicly endorsed MK-V, would you still feel that I should not post? I think I have always been extremely rational and thoughtful with my posts. Do I occasionally endorse a product? Absolutely! I, like most seasoned operators, am very opinionated when it comes to the gear I use. I think most members of this community are thankful for my (as well as others) detailed opinions when given. If you, or anyone, has a problem with a given moderator, the proper response is to write a private email to said moderator and try and sort things out. If this does not work or you are uncomfortable doing this then the best thing to do would be to contact Tim Tyler. I have the utmost respect for my fellow moderators because I know how much work they have done for this forum. Yes, we all have very different styles but as Afton (thanks for the support, my friend) has pointed out, we were all nominated by the members of this community. Moderators are a much needed part of this forum and to suggest we shouldn?t post is simply unrealistic. We are not paid; we volunteer our time because we love all things Steadicam and believe that there is still hope in this forum. If it were mandated that I couldn?t post, I?d resign in a heartbeat as I?m sure any established member of this community would. Would you want an outsider trying to handle these threads?

 

Your comments about Will were out-of-line. Will is a very respected operator and a true AR pioneer. To alienate him just seems odd. You criticize this forum because some heavy hitters no longer post, yet you try and silence Will. Will Arnot IS a heavy hitter and we are very fortunate to have him here. Charles Papert, another veteran that still posts here regularly, tried to gently suggest that you have a PR problem and in response you explode and throw mud everywhere in the hopes that it sticks to anyone but you. You write that much of the criticism directed at you comes from XCS owners. What is this supposed to imply? Greg Bubb not only makes some of the best equipment on the market today, he provides customer service that is second to none and I also have come to consider him a friend. I feel it necessary to defend him since he does not post in this forum as he feels it is not his place as an equipment manufacturer. I have never seen him say anything negative about you or your gear so I take great offense to your implications.

 

Where I do agree with you Howard is that this forum has strayed too far from its origins, but it is not as bad as you may think. Yes, we have lost a few wonderful operators who used to post all the time, but we still have a lot of veterans. Larry still posts from time to time as does Chris and even Garrett. More frequent guests include: Will, Charles, Jerry, Erwin, Janice, Rob, and yes, your personal favorite Eric. These operators have a lot of years between them, and I for one am happy they are here. (I?m sure I left a ton of great people off this list - these names just came to mind.) We have lost people for a number of reasons ranging from the user interface to overwhelming posts by newbies (I hate that term, sorry) to yes? the mud slinging. I believe it was Eric that suggested the Newbies section which has turned out to be a resounding success, as it allows salty dogs to pass by - if so inclined - but it is also a less intimidating place to post novice questions.

 

Enough said on this front. We agree that things should get back on track, so please let us all do our part in this and continue the open dialog on this fabulous profession of ours. We may not all agree on all things (face it, it would be boring if we did) but in the end, there is a place for all of us here.

 

Thank you and fly safe everyone.

[Howard J Smith]

Hi Alec

 

Thank you for your post ? Sorry for the delay in replying I have been working all weekend.

 

Please let me start by saying that I have the utmost respect for you. My post was not aimed at you personally and I had no wish to upset you ? It is more of a general concern. And a response to the craziness that has been going on here. I don?t have a problem with criticism, only with people posting false information as fact ? repeatedly.

 

?On so many levels you?ve managed to offend.?

 

I am sorry if the truth hurts, I have had lots of feedback personally from people who said they totally agree with me. I HAD to stop this BS ? it was getting so silly. I don?t know whom I have offended?

If stating the facts (please note ?facts?) offends people, then I don?t really know what to say. I am not going to sit here and listen to all these untruths aimed at my company, and myself, by people with hidden agendas or who don?t know the facts. I want people to know the truth, (please email me your questions off forum) most of what I was responding to is nothing but fiction.

?Your comments on moderators and your suggestion that we not be allowed to post was so shocking that I actually took a few days away from the forum to cool off! I seem to recall that you were happy with my selection to the moderating team when I last saw you at NAB (2006).?

 

I am sorry that it upset you this way; I am ?happy with you?.

Ok - please try and understand this is how I feel every time I see an ?ill-informed? post. Which has been an awful lot recently. I had to say something.

What I am also talking about is ?certain? moderators starting a very biased and opinionated thread, then when we (other ops) post against the work of fiction, our posts have been deleted? - This HAS to stop ? of course people are entitled to their opinions - BUT So are we!

You cannot have the person starting the fight who is also in charge of the rules ? it is totally one sided and biased. ? I feel so strongly about all this, Hence the posts.

 

?I, like most seasoned operators, am very opinionated when it comes to the gear I use.?

 

I too am also a very seasoned operator and also opinionated ? I don?t just design and make the kit, but I am still a working op and Dp. I have been working as a professional Steadicam op for over 21 years.

(For those who are interested please see some of the jobs I have worked on - http://imdb.com/name/nm0808475/ )

Over the years I have used and tested ALL the equipment out there; this is why I started MK-V. To have a kit that met the needs required and also to offer customer service from an operators point of view.

 

?If you, or anyone, has a problem with a given moderator, the proper response is to write a private email to said moderator and try and sort things out. If this does not work or you are uncomfortable doing this then the best thing to do would be to contact Tim Tyler.?

 

Of course this is what we did straight away ? you as a moderator should know this. The result - Nothing happened.

The expression ? (quis custodiet ipsos custodes?) ?who will guard the guards themselves?? springs to mind.

 

?Moderators are a much needed part of this forum?

 

WHY? ? I don?t understand this part? Or why they are needed?

 

?And to suggest we shouldn?t post is simply unrealistic. We are not paid; we volunteer our time because we love all things Steadicam and believe that there is still hope in this forum. If it were mandated that I couldn?t post, I?d resign in a heartbeat, as I?m sure any established member of this community would. Would you want an outsider trying to handle these threads??

 

As I said before I have no beef with you ? I for one would rather have your feedback and posts than have moderators!

 

All I know is since the ?moderators? started, attendance and helpful posting has dropped big time. ? In fact most people whom I speak to say this forum is now a waste of time, and sadly I am beginning to think that way too.

I know I for one would visit and post more if there were no moderators to ?interfere? with our posts.

 

?Your comments about Will were out-of-line. Will is a very respected operator and a true AR pioneer.?

 

I hold Will in high esteem as an op, but even so, he is not the most experienced MK-V A-R operator out there.

Will does not know all the facts and some of his posts are Way off the mark. We have spoken to him at length re this Off forum.

 

?To alienate him just seems odd. You criticize this forum because some heavy hitters no longer post, yet you try and silence Will. Will Arnot IS a heavy hitter and we are very fortunate to have him here. Charles Papert, another veteran that still posts here regularly, tried to gently suggest that you have a PR problem and in response you explode and throw mud everywhere in the hopes that it sticks to anyone but you.?

 

PR is an issue I take Very seriously. And any suggestions on how we can improve our service ? I am all ears (please email me off forum). I feel I am in a no win situation. The ?PR problem? is partially due to a self-fulfilling prophecy, resulting from fictional posts on here -??

So can you see how crazy this is? ? I am having to defend myself and company from false information? it is a catch 22 situation. Without this forum and the BS posts, life would be a lot easier - QED.

 

As far as I am aware I have Very happy customers.

I know this as they email and call me to tell me how happy they are!

I welcome all and any comments ? TO ME howard@mk-v.com ? so I can help them and act on the information. What I strongly object to ? is works of fiction being posted as fact, and then everyone judging me on this? This is what my post is/was about. MK-V strives to think out of the box and challenge the world of camera stabilization and to make it better for all. (This reminds me of the expression ?you can?t make an omelet without breaking a few eggs?)

 

?You write that much of the criticism directed at you comes from XCS owners. What is this supposed to imply? Greg Bubb not only makes some of the best equipment on the market today, he provides customer service that is second to none and I also have come to consider him a friend. I feel it necessary to defend him since he does not post in this forum as he feels it is not his place as an equipment manufacturer. I have never seen him say anything negative about you or your gear so I take great offense to your implications.?

 

I really wish this were true!

You don?t even know the half of it.

Sadly, I have first hand knowledge of this. As do some of my customers.

And just for the record (not wishing to sound paranoid, or offend you but)? you fly a mainly XCS sled??

 

?Where I do agree with you Howard is that this forum has strayed too far from its origins, but it is not as bad as you may think. Yes, we have lost a few wonderful operators who used to post all the time, but we still have a lot of veterans. Larry still posts from time to time as does Chris and even Garrett. More frequent guests include: Will, Charles, Jerry, Erwin, Janice, Rob, and yes, your personal favorite Eric. These operators have a lot of years between them, and I for one am happy they are here. (I?m sure I left a ton of great people off this list - these names just came to mind.)?

 

Great! ? we are getting somewhere. The names above are just a very small handful of the ops we used to have here. But now it is the same names over and over again ? there is nothing new ? no one, myself included can be bothered to post new ideas or ways of working, as it is just not worth it anymore. ALL the ops I talk to are not interested in this forum anymore ? most use the phrase ?BS?, ?Ego?s? ?can?t be bothered? and ?Arrogant? when they talk about it.

 

 

?We have lost people for a number of reasons ranging from the user interface to overwhelming posts by newbie?s (I hate that term, sorry) to yes? the mud slinging.?

 

?Mud slinging? - This is your main reason ? All I have spoken to and myself inc. are just totally sick of this. Which is why I was compelled to write. Enough is enough.

Please note - The user interface and posts from newbie?s are just fine!

 

?I believe it was Eric that suggested the Newbie?s section which has turned out to be a resounding success, as it allows salty dogs to pass by - if so inclined - but it is also a less intimidating place to post novice questions.?

 

But no one ? myself Included posts there anymore, as all the snide and childish comments are not worth the hassle. (And worth noting -these Are not from the newbie?s?.!!)

 

?Enough said on this front. We agree that things should get back on track, so please let us all do our part in this and continue the open dialog on this fabulous profession of ours. We may not all agree on all things (face it, it would be boring if we did) but in the end, there is a place for all of us here.?

 

I TOTALLY Agree and this is the point of opening ?this can of worms?

The forum would self-destruct left the way it is going. Most ops I talk to do not even look here anymore, let alone post. When asked about the forum, the main comment and I quote, is ?what the arrogant forum? ? No Not interested, its BS.?

 

Alec - Thank you for taking time to post and for caring as I do about ?steadicam? and this forum. I look forward to seeing you and talking over a beer or 2(3) very soon.

Sorry for the long post - I just wanted to thorough.

With great respect.

Howard.

 

If anyone would like to talk more this please email me off forum.

howard@mk-v.com

 

Thanks.

Howard

[TJ Williams]

Hadn't seen this thread in a while.

 

My son and I both tried out the ar at last NAB it was a lotta fun. Howard was a real gentleman. I recently E mailed Howard and he got right back to me.

 

I mostly own Pro/XCs parts in my sled. even so I looked hard at Howard's equipment and finally decided on the course I took mostly on the basis of location of the mfgs. I just mention this because this hasn't kept me from thinking there is a lot of nice kit from MK5, Sachtler, Chrozeil etc.

 

I have had a bunch of expectations about the AR which have mostly proven untrue....

 

 

I've been expecting there to be a bunch of AR rigs in rental. Two reasons I've thought this:

 

1. Because it takes time to set up and tear down the Ar. I have heard it is often better to have a second setup for straight steadicam on set.(either lighter weight or sync sound) so renting an ar sled, when required would make sense for an operator who already owns one sled.

 

2. The AR is high priced so many operators may be hesitant to buy. Using an item as a rental often leads to purchasing.

 

I've been expecting to see some workshops on AR use for experienced operators.

 

I've been expecting AR kits to set up various sleds to work with the AR camera and monitor mount. For two reasons.

 

1. Many operators have very nice sleds that have cost them a lot. It would sell more ars if they could buy without converting sleds.

 

2. I have flown my rig sideways(in a rock video) with a large sync/blimped camera up which weighs more than a 235 and AR, my pro top stage and my gymbal had no problem with this. So I feel pretty confident that my sled could handle the weight of the AR.

 

So after all the somewhat acrimonious postings above I find that I was wrong: Appearently the AR is not available in rental. It is not available for other sleds than the Nexus. There are no AR workshops similiar to the masters workshops. I'm already to stand corrected.

 

Just a side note about business and profitability. A person some of you will recognize at Tiffen told me the money wasn't in the expensive rigs as they sold too few. the money is in those little dv cam rigs.

so of course I'm still waiting for the announcement of the dv cam ar.

[JamesSainthill]

Hey all,

 

I have done as much reading as possible about the A-R and like most operators on our watery rock, I've heard some of the stories, seen the many pictures and watched the various on-line demo reels (when they are actually up) of the Alien Revolution. I find the evolution of this type of technology very interesting, but the one peice of the puzzle that I hope is not forgotten is the A-R's predecessor.

 

I only know what I have ready about Lynn Nicholson's original Alien prototype system, but I would like to know more. As time passes and technologies move along, I would hate to see Lynn's design become the steadicam equilivant of the Canadian Avro Arrow.

 

So if there are any people out there that have pictures or stories about the original Alien, I think there are many of us that would be really interested in them.

 

J.St.Hill

[Erwin Landau]

Date: Tuesday, January 22, 2002 12:49 PM

From: Lynn Nicholson

Topic: Re: Rolling, rolling, rawhide! Message: 12 of 16 Read 633 times

 

 

SCF2002-Operating Listmanager wrote:

 

> From: "Bob Wise"

>

> As someone who has been lucky enough to use Lynn's sled (or maybe I should say cursed as it is very difficult to go back to a sled that is in evolutionary terms akin to fishing with a club) he seems to have addressed all the needs of the operator as well as crossed his T's and dotted all the i's.

>

> The vistas a rig like this open up are really awesome on a creative and marketing level for the operator ...here is hoping someone will get smart and get it into production ASAP.

>

> I for one am still trying to talk Lynn into selling me the prototype!

>

> R.L.Wise SOC

> ST Thomas USVI

>

> To reply: mailto:SCF2002-Operating.36451@forums.siteforums.com

> To start a new topic: mailto:SCF2002-Operating@forums.siteforums.com

> To login: http://forums.siteforums.com:80/~steadicam2002

 

Hello Everyone,

 

Apparently, this is as good a time as any to publicly announce some of the details of our revolutionary camera stabilizer. The Alien (as we now call it) was conceived over 7 years ago, as an effort to eliminate two of the major shortcomings associated with standard Steadicam type devices: 1) limited

continuous vertical lens travel, and 2) an unstable horizon. The Alien's present capabilities far exceed those imagined in the original vision.

 

The Alien at least doubles continuous vertical lens travel when compared to a standard Steadicam type device, while simultaneously and automatically maintaining a level camera and monitor. Say good-bye forever to all low mode brackets, low mode conversions, gyro conversions, Antler conversions, and

the production time and energy lost to these conversions. The Alien is physically compact and sync sound compatible.

 

Further, the Alien provides the operator with selectable control of the camera roll axis, allowing variable speed camera rolls, Dutch angles, or re-calibration of camera level based on visual references in the shot. And for that rare moment when an unstable horizon is preferred, the Alien provides a

defeat/lock button for imitating the prior art. All functions are available on-the-fly. The Alien may be positioned at any inclination to clear bushes, car hoods, tables, the operator's legs, etc., without affecting camera inclination. Neutral balance operation is possible and preferred, thus

reducing inertial anomalies (headroom issues), and eliminating the need for motorized stages and the flexing associated with their implementation.

 

From an operator's standpoint, the Alien is truly other-worldly (hence the name Alien). Its performance in 35+ mph winds is mystical--the horizon remains perfectly level, effortlessly. Finally, we are actively assisted by our rig, and we can focus all of our energy on the creative aspects of the

shot. Novice operators who can frame, will be able to do acceptable shots the first time, while expert operators will take the new art to places heretofore unimaginable. The ability to shoot from high mode to low mode (and back) continuously has to be experienced to be believed. The Alien is the

Holy Grail of stabilizers.

 

That being said, nearly a million dollars worth of research and development has taken place in our garage over the last few years. Those of you who know us (Roxanne and I) and know about the Alien project, know that we have been trying to sell the project since December of 1997 (completion of the 1st

POC prototype) to various potential manufacturing partners/licensees. The politics of such a sale has been disheartening, to say the least. We have shown the Alien prototypes in good faith to numerous companies (and individuals) in the film industry and also to companies in the aerospace arena.

Even Garrett Brown has flown the Alien.

 

We have been shocked to find out that NDAs, confidentiality/proprietary rights agreements, and even patents, while absolutely respected in aerospace, mean very little to some people/companies in our industry. Attempts have been made to steal the project. Proprietary information has been used or

passed on, in direct violation of the agreements. Most companies and individuals, however, have been extremely supportive of the Alien and worthy of our trust. We thank those companies, and Greg, Larry, Jim, Liz, Nelson, Ron, Alfred, Bob, Dave and Dave for you integrity and support, and for keeping

us informed of all that has transpired behind the scenes.

 

In closing, we have a fully functional Alien prototype that is suitable for demos. Beta testing of the production version will start soon, when it is completed. Production will follow. I eagerly look forward to that day, since I am one of only a few operators on this planet who knows how

frustrating it feels to go back to conventional Steadicam operating, or "fishing with a club" as Bob Wise mentioned...

 

Best Regards,

 

Lynn Nicholson

[Erwin Landau]

Here back in 2003:

Lynn Nicholson Showing Howard Smith, How it's done right and properly... with the Alien.

 

Look! The monitor and the camera are actually in sync and level!

 

 

With the AR on the set of "House" in 2005... not so much...

 

 

[Eric Fletcher S.O.C.]

Here back in 2003:

Lynn Nicholson Showing Howard Smith, How it's done right and properly... with the Alien.

 

Look! The monitor and the camera are actually in sync and level!

 

 

 

I think Howard's look of befuddlement says it all. Remember according to Howard his rig was nearly finished at this point.....

[Stephen Murphy]

Here back in 2003:

Lynn Nicholson Showing Howard Smith, How it's done right and properly... with the Alien.

 

Cool - i never thought id get to see Lynn's alien. Nice photo erwin. god bless you photo archive of steadicam history:)!

[Ari Gertler]

The SteadicamForum:

What a great source of information for all of us Steadicam operators and those looking for more info. I Started this particular post about the Alien (pre-Revolution) OVER THREE YEARS AGO and it is still going strong.

 

Thanks to all those keeping the SteadicamForum up and running.

 

Ari Gertler

[RonBaldwin]

here's a few pictures I dug up from the same day. looks like happy times.

 

rb

 

 

[RonBaldwin]

ya know, it just occured to me looking at these pictures...is that an xcs sled? for some reason I thought Lynn had modded a masters series sled -- just shows my memory is going. kudos to both Lynn and Gregg for these early pictures.

 

rb

[Eric Fletcher S.O.C.]

ya know, it just occured to me looking at these pictures...is that an xcs sled? for some reason I thought Lynn had modded a masters series sled -- just shows my memory is going. kudos to both Lynn and Gregg for these early pictures.

 

 

Lynn originally bought a masters sled. The Alien was built on a XCS Ultimate for several reasons

[WillArnot]

I think Howard's look of befuddlement says it all. Remember according to Howard his rig was nearly finished at this point.....

 

 

I think its more like a look of wonder, like..."Holy shit, this is how you do it then". Howard's so called "ready for market" version that he came up with "independently" from Lynn was no where near ready for market. Howard thought it was "good enough" to let the monitor be driven by gravity and not be powered at all. This helps explain his hidden look of amazement and ecstatic grin since he had just been shown how to do all the things he could not figure out for himself.

 

It is no secret that Howard begged a couple of key people in order to get to Lynn and see his Prototype because he could not figure out how to make his own "version" work. This also explains his elation and wonderment in the pics.

 

It is just so sad and frustrating to me that with all Howard's rhetoric and false promises of honoring Lynn and the licensing agreement Lynn granted him, that the AR still comes up so short. I won't go into my laundry list of technical greivances w/ the AR. Suffice to say that having flown the Alien POC (proof of concept - pictured) I am left wanting so much more from the AR. Off the bat, I could easily be flying the Genesis camera on the Alien where it doesn't even come close to fitting inside the rings of the AR. Camera fitment is an extremely time consuming problem with the AR unless flying the 235.

 

And then also consider the issue of running necessary cables to the camera. The sheer design of the Alien pictured means that the routing of the cables is inherently taken care of. Again, brilliance in Lynn's integration of design from the ground up. Howard has been talking about a slip ring approach to solve this problem of cabling the AR, but it has yet to happen and I shudder to think of the consequences to weight. Especially in light of the fact that Howard told Lynn the AR cage would weigh 4 lbs when in fact it weighs 9 pounds. Lynn's Alien head pictured weighs 6lbs and Lynn was always striving for 4lbs, which had significance to the total mass of the system.

 

My agreement with Howard as a Pioneer for the AR was also contingent upon developing the gimbal mount rotation control. This was specific to achieving the standard that had already been established with Lynn's design. Howard has yet to figure out how to achieve this and has re-negged on his agreement with me to provide this important part of the camera control system. Despite Howard being a slave to his impulses and advertising the Gimbal control on his website, it still does not exist.

 

Howard has yet to pay Lynn one single penny for the agreed to royalties that he is due. How many AR's are out there now? Nobody quite knows and this is what Howard wants, nobody to know. If nobody knows exactly how many have been sold, he can't be held accountable for the untold amounts of money he owes Lynn. It also serves another convenient purpose for Howard whereby none of us AR owners really know who else has one.

 

When it became apparent that there were issues that needed to be solved with the AR and I started asking challenging questions of Howard and MK-V, the web page on the MK-V website listing the original owners was taken down. WHY?? Because if we don't know who has one, we don't know who to talk to in order to compare notes and keep the pressure on Howard to make necessary upgrades. Howard would prefer that we remain in the dark, rather than try and come together and solve things as I have tried to do from the outset.

 

It should also be pointed out that despite Howard convincing Lynn that he was "ready for production" at the time of these pictures, the AR did not debut a year later at NAB because it was failing. Lynn, shocked at what was about to be shown to the public then gave Jason, Howard's primary designer, the technical details needed to make things work properly. It quickly became apparent to Lynn at this point that he and his wife had been lied to by Howard. It took another year from then to get the first version of the AR to people like myself, Chris McGuire, Jeff Mart, Neal Norton, and Chad Persons.

 

Perhaps with this honest account of facts that few people know, Howard will become more accountable for his actions and claims. Hopefully we won't see any more silliness here on the forum where those who don't know any better think that people are just "jealous because they didn't do it first and Howard did". This couldn't be further from the truth as evidenced in these pictures.

 

These show how prudence and the quest for perfection by Lynn had been persevering for 10 years already at the time of these pictures. There is a good reason Lynn had not had a development deal with anyone before this time. It is an extremely complicated and expensive project. One that Howard convinced Lynn he was ready to take on, and pay him accordingly for.

 

It is a very sad day that sees Lynn, a man of great integrity, wisdom and knowledge, go completely unpaid for his work spanning over a decade of his own time, research, development and money.

 

So I propose this. Due to Howard's total abuse of the licensing agreement I can no longer in my heart of hearts continue to operate the AR and earn very good money with it while Lynn stands by and receives nothing. Since Howard and MK-V continue to offer me no solutions and support, I am putting my AR up for sale. Part of the proceeds of this sale I will be giving to Lynn and his family.

 

Please contact me off forum with your offers.

 

willglide@mac.com

 

Will Arnot