The ALIEN / Alien Revolution - All about...

[Thomas English]

I certainly do not intend to sling anything since I respect you all as operators and well mentors over the many years of steadicaming. I would like to make my position clear that I just operate and practise on the AR s, I don t work for mk-v. As a result i don t know what ships what etc etc. Although I think what you describe as a 3a topstage made by mk-v is a much better made topstage to the original 3a topstages that also may have been used for the last 15 years of operating. I don t know what Raymond used, uses or wants to use and really it has nothing to do with me.

 

I would love it if a thread started about actually using the AR, tips, tricks and hurdles in operating unfortunately for now anything said becomes a target on ones forehead. I personally don t feel like being shot, slated nor bad mouthed, which none of you have done yet but... this is a war zone!

 

The AR works.... well

[Lee Thompson]

Hi I'm a newbie thats very interested in the Alien.

 

I've read the forum and am keen to learn more about the XCS Alien;

Is it available to buy?

What has it worked on?

How much is it?

What cameras does it fly?

What is the learning curve?

Is there any technical info. on it?

Do XCS make it?

Have Eric or Erwin flown it on a paid job?

Is it only available in the USA?

What is the lead time to payment and shipping?

 

Theres alot of people on here discussing it but there does'nt seem to be any talk about using it? Its sounds like an unfaultable piece of engineering.

 

IS IT AVAILABLE?????

 

Lee Thompson.

[JobScholtze]

Hi I'm a newbie thats very interested in the Alien.

 

I've read the forum and am keen to learn more about the XCS Alien;

Is it available to buy?

What has it worked on?

How much is it?

What cameras does it fly?

What is the learning curve?

Is there any technical info. on it?

Do XCS make it?

Have Eric or Erwin flown it on a paid job?

Is it only available in the USA?

What is the lead time to payment and shipping?

 

Theres alot of people on here discussing it but there does'nt seem to be any talk about using it? Its sounds like an unfaultable piece of engineering.

 

IS IT AVAILABLE?????

 

Lee Thompson.

I get a funny feeling about this. New member, and right on the nail to start yet another war.

[Alec Jarnagin SOC]

Lee,

 

I assume you've read through this disaster.....

 

http://www.steadicamforum.com/forums/index...post&p=1118

 

Lee, are you currently a Steadicam Operator? Considering the controversy that has surrounded both the Alien and the AR on this forum, you managed to pick an interesting first post. That said, Job, let's see where this goes for a moment. By definition, I don't see Lee's question as bait being tossed in the water, rather a question regarding the Alien. I assure all of you, if this thread deteriorates as quickly as the other, I will delete it VERY fast....

 

Now, to the question at hand, Lee, the Alien is not made by XCS. The original Alien was designed by Lynn Nicholson and utilized an XCS sled as a starting point. Greg Bubb (owner of XCS) was involved - to some degree - with the project but it was really Lynn's baby. Unfortunately, Lynn was never able to produce the Alien as he feels it still needs a lot more money to bring the project to the next level. His prototype remains with him in Las Vegas (where I notice you are from). I suggest you contact him.

[Eric Fletcher S.O.C.]

The AR works.... well

 

 

If you had every used the Alien you would NEVER say that the AR works well. You would say that it is extremely lacking in every sense of the word.

[Stephen Press]

Gosh I had no idea this was going on? since Feb 6 2004? and I thought the flame fights about RED were ruff? anyway sorry to interrupt, now back to your regular slagging match?

[Martin Stacey]

Here a picture of Jeff Mart's Alien-Revolution. With the "3A top stage". Being recipient of AR Number 001, he still has not received his Version 2 nor a beefed up camera stage nor the Gimbal control...

 

 

Just facts,

 

Erwin

 

 

Interesting.... Did all the guys that bought the Model 2 steadicam when it first came out bitch and moan about not getting free upgrades when the model 3 arrived, and the the 3a, and the EFP, and the.....etc.

 

Good on Jeff for being an early adopter of new technology but being first doesn't mean that it's going to be perfect. Who rushed to the store to buy Windows Vista recently to discover that it's not perfect yet? These things take time and with each new situation that the AR is placed in as the creativity develops, new issues will arise and eventually be worked out.

Compared with the modern day rigs the original steadicam models where junk but they did a job that was required at the time and the equipment will continue to develop and evolve as problems get ironed out. New tech will always have issues but it's only the people out there that are prepared to give it a go that will ever be able to help solve them.

When I was at MK-V testing the AR Howard openly said that even he is still learning what the AR is and isn't capable of and as a result will continue to evolve. The only way to solve any issues is if those using it are prepared to be constructive in finding solutions to any issues rather than just getting shot down for even mentioning it. Whining does nothing constructive to help anyone.

Most of what has been said in this thread has been useful and constructive. It has brought to the attention of most some of the issues surrounding the AR but the constant sniping and personal attacks do nothing to help anyone who is considering the equipment. You wonder why Howard has such a negative attitude towards some this, quite frankly anyone would when faced with such unwarranted personal attacks from some of you. You do yourselves no favours and endear yourselves to noone.

 

My 2 cents.

 

Martin

 

PS. Stephen, feel free to contact me anytime you're in Christchurch if you want to see what the AR is actually capable of.

[Eric Fletcher S.O.C.]

Here a picture of Jeff Mart's Alien-Revolution. With the "3A top stage". Being recipient of AR Number 001, he still has not received his Version 2 nor a beefed up camera stage nor the Gimbal control...

 

 

Just facts,

 

Erwin

 

 

Interesting.... Did all the guys that bought the Model 2 steadicam when it first came out bitch and moan about not getting free upgrades when the model 3 arrived, and the the 3a, and the EFP, and the.....etc.

 

 

No but when Jeff and all the "Pioneers" layed down the cash and bought the V1 they were promised upgrades to the V2 spec. Guess it's another of Howards broken promises.

 

So glad that you posted your opinion without knowing all the facts. And before you get your panties all in a bunch Martin, I was there when Howard made those promises.

[benedictspence]

And before you get your panties all in a bunch...

 

 

Woah Eric, please sir, calm down. There is no need for that kind of hostility. Everyone who read the board understands you have strong feelings about this subject but I'm not gonna sit here and see you have a pop at people like that, lets all be a bit more respectful to each other huh?

 

I think Martin had a good point and I know that Thomas English is well qualified to post about the AR, I'm sure if you really thought about it you'd agree that everyone should be allowed to have their say without fear of being bullied.

Edited May 22, 2007 by benedictspence

[JobScholtze]

And before you get your panties all in a bunch...

 

 

Woah Eric, please sir, calm down. There is no need for that kind of hostility. Everyone who read the board understands you have strong feelings about this subject but I'm not gonna sit here and see you have a pop at people like that, lets all be a bit more respectful to each other huh?

 

I think Martin had a good point and I know that Thomas English is well qualified to post about the AR, I'm sure if you really thought about it you'd agree that everyone should be allowed to have their say without fear of being bullied.

 

I like to add that i rather hear people who actually work with the AR than your comments eric. Becose all i hear from you is the same song. You made your point, no lets hear the do's and dont's of the system.

[Jaron Berman]

Truthfully, amongst the 27 pages in this tread, there is a lot of good, first hand information regarding a LOT of topics. I admit, I initially had no interest in the system at all, and read for the entertainment value alone. Like Robert, I went back and did some research on a lot of the issues and technologies brought up, and out of curiosity, even learned a bit about patent law. Interesting stuff!

 

Has this thread outlived its usefullness? Perhaps. I'll admit, I don't have hands-on experience with the Alien, AR, Revolution, etc... but even I could put together a pretty exhaustive and current list of the positives and negatives of the system simply from these pages. It's a discredit to those who HAVE shared their experiences to simply say "ok, NOW let's hear what people have to say." This fourm exists as exactly that - an open forum to share ideas and opinions, and there is no lack of either concerning this system.

 

Sometimes we can use the forum to get quick answers or favors, and sometimes the information takes a bit more digging to come up with. But the fact remains that the forum is not, nor has anyone ever claimed it to be a replacement for personal opinion formation or further research. Face it, we spend too much money on very specialized products to simply rely on the opinions of faceless names online. By using our real names, we basically agree to a convention of shared knowledge. If after reading this thread, one seriously feels like AR will enhance his/her work, the $50,000+ invenstment may be worth a couple phone calls or detailed emails to current/former owners, and some hands-on time with the rig.

 

One of the beautiful things about Steadicam is that every user approaches the whole gamut of steadicam-related issues differently. We don't all look at shots the same, we don't all operate the same. And therein lies the paradox of it all. Steadicam is still essentially (to quote Jerry) a Circus Act. Beyond an outside limited understanding of our craft, there is an inside lack of beta testing ability. There are simply too few potential users to make it economically feasible. So that means as users, we find all the bugs in the system. Some are certainly larger than others - I won't rehash, but there's a lot of info on those bugs concering the AR system here. Obviously, after spending that kinda scratch, one would certainly try to be positive about the system and live with a few.. but there are also opinions from users who pushed things and found glaring limitations.

 

Basically, it's all here. We can't wholesale dismiss the forum as useless or ridiculous on account of personal attacks between members. It did its job allowing an open arena to share experience and character.

Edited May 22, 2007 by Jaron Berman

[Martin Stacey]

Well said Jaron. My point exactly, and thankyou Eric for proving my point about endearing yourself to noone.

 

Martin

[WillArnot]

Yes, Jaron you have a good voice here in that you are not directly connected to all this hoopla. Thanks for being here.

 

Guys, Guys.

 

These are all highly subjective points of view here. Remember that most of the people posting here are quite heavily invested in either the AR or MK-V.

 

Martin you are really comparing apples to oranges. Everything has changed in the world of Steadicam since the days of the Model 2. Of course free upgrades were not part of the equation back in what 1987 when CP was the monopoly on the Steadicam world? But in so asking, you illustrate that you have little knowledge about the agreements made between Howard/MK-V and those initial Pioneers of the AR, of which I was one.

 

Myself, Jeff Mart, Chad Parsons, Neil Norton were all Pioneers. This involved giving Howard all our money up front to go and build AR's for us. Now just think about that for a moment. Without our money, Howard could not have moved forward, he did not have the money to just build these things. We had all demo'd the AR at that point. There was maybe one built that Howard was showing us all. It seemed to work fairly well from our completely uninformed perspective, having not dealt with the technology much before that time.

 

In hind sight these were very controlled situations where the AR / sled was already built, there was no discussion or consideration given to mounting focus or multiple lens motors. There was a lot of talk from Howard about slip rings etc. and making things simpler. Some of us had experience w/ the Alien so we understood how important the gimbal control was, and it was very clear between Howard and myself / pioneers that the gimbal control was an integral part of making the AR a controllable and useful device. It was therefore part of the Pioneer agreement that the V2 would include this important piece of the system. Of course none of us ever saw the gimbal control. There is much that Howard is still painfully learning, this much is true.

 

These demos illustrate a point consistently made by Lynn Nicholson, that Yes, of course, the concept is brilliant, it is an easy sell in that regard when you dazzle a camera guy with the sight of a camera flying over a desk top etc. Job and Andrew are testament to that "dreaming about making those kinds of shots". As were we the Pioneers. All accomplished Operators looking to take things to the next level.

 

And did we expect things to be perfect??? NOOO!!! This is another flawed rationale. Having been in the world of Steadicam, all of us for at least 15 years each, we would be fools to think that there would be no bumps in the road. And so this was part of the trust (foolishly) put in to giving Howard our money and entering this Pioneer agreement. We would be the first guys on the block with the new gear. We would use it, practice with it, give MK-V our feedback, promote it on set, and in return we would receive the V2 as an upgrade. This was the agreement.

 

This agreement was founded on the concept of trust. Without being long winded, the point boils down to the fact that Howard has broken that trust time and time again. This is why there is so much animosity. Howard has learned the hard way, how detrimental this can be in such a small community. Instead of working with us he has broken that trust with those of us who stuck our necks out and said, "go on mate, here's the money, we trust you will do the right thing, go do it, we will show your stuff off, we will help you help us and it will be a win win situation".

 

Well Chad and Neil were both let down so badly from the get go that they ended up selling their entire MK-V Nexus sled and AR set up. To those of you who have just purchased similar setups, just think about that. And these guys are no small potatoes. Neil is Philippe Rousselot's operator: movies like Planet of the Apes, Big Fish, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. And we are talking full time operator here. Not a day player who pads their resume with anything they spend 5 minutes on the set of (like some people here do).

And Chad was the Operator on one of the most successful TV shows in the US, The West Wing. Now logic only begs that, wouldn't you bend over backwards as a manufacturer to keep these kinds of guys happy and using your gear?? And as those operators, don't you think they probably hung in there as long as they could to try and make the stuff work?? That's a big investment to just throw your hands in the air and say "____ It!"

 

Perhaps one of the reasons I have had a certain amount of success w/ the AR is because I haven't been saddled w/ the Nexus, but have flown it on my XCS sled. As has been pointed out, the XCS was the first sled in the industry to come out with a 2" post 2" gimbal, and it is also why there are no bearings in the top stage, the XY is at the bottom. These are critical points in building an auto leveling device whereby strength and rigidity in the post and top stage are paramount. And Thomas English, if you do some homework on Carbon Fiber weaves you will find that there are some serious flaws in the weave structure of all but the XCS post.

Surely common sense says it is foolish to step down in post diameter the closer you get to the critical mass. ie. the camera. This may be OK on the Ultra but not on a sled designed to fly horizontally. No. The XCS sled was specifically designed to fly on its side, such that there is almost a full 3" footprint under the top stage. Go measure the diameter of the post that meets the top stage on the Nexus. 1.8" at best on the 4 stage post?

 

You know, I see a lot of your eyeballs glazing over with the length and the information here. My frustration runs deep on this topic, and it also mirrors a similar deep seated frustration I endure that I realize perhaps may shed some light on the whole topic.

We are speaking at this subject from some quite far corners of the world from Asia, to Australia, Europe and the US. An inspiring notion, and one that we should learn from and not let us be divided over the actions of a few.

 

So perhaps we can all understand this with a wee analogy to someone we all know about, George W. Bush. His actions are un-fathomable to be sure, but where the analogy applies to our story is that Howard Smith is the kind of guy who also avoids reality, and will tell you that "if you are not with me, then you are against me." Or my personal favourite, "You should practice economy of truth". What is that?? Well it's a nice way of saying, "Lie". It means that when something is bad, don't tell. That way you aren't actually lying. Well, I don't subscribe to that moral standard. If I don't tell it like it is, then I am not honouring the truth.

 

This explains a lot of the two camp theory where people who are invested w/ MK-V will suffer the MK-V cold shoulder if they don't practice "Economy of Truth". And the sad thing is that all of us who can't stand working with Howard have all been more than patient and reasonable for as long as we could. Hey, look at page 19 on this thread. As recently as this past January, I was still trying to show the gear in action and not talk about all the BS going on behind the scenes.

 

But you tell me, satisfied ones. When is enough enough?? None of us are just unhappy people making up lies. We are only speaking from real experience. I received my AR end of '04 beginning of '05. Howard would rather point the finger rather than work with us to fix problems. Lord knows I tried for the better part of 2 years. The reality Howard still avoids when he confuses us with nonsense about top stages, is that the problem isn't with the top stage, it is within the cage / baseplate of the AR.

 

But just like Bush, he will pepper you with other details, hoping that you won't really look at the real problem. All the while pointing the finger anywhere but at his own actions and designs. But the tragic thing about the whole "if not with me then against me", is that very little gets done correctly. It is a train wreck in spite of the efforts of those of us who have tried to talk sense and rationality to Howard.

 

So Andrew, I salute you for extricating yourself from this thread (re: your deleted post), but don't hold back on keeping us informed of how things are going. Here is one thing to check. Hold the cage still while you press firmly at the top middle of the camera while it is mounted in the cage. On my cage the entire camera / baseplate would flex upwards greater than a full Centimeter! If it doesn't flex then perhaps Howard has fixed this problem, since I have made such a stink about it for so long. Howard will not have made this known to anyone, but will pretend like nothing was ever a problem.

 

Andrew, it sounds like perhaps Howard has finally come around and got some new people in there at MK-V. I was so frustrated with the lack of any expert help, this was one of my beefs for a long time, simple telephone support. I was always told I was the problem. Now it seems that MK-V was indeed comprised of a wanker (literally) and some self serving types, who have been replaced and hopefully a new light appears for the running of MK-V.

 

The sad part is that I have never enjoyed any working comraderie with Howard. It is always denial, or he is unreachable, or he simply gives lip service and then completely fails to follow through on anything he swore he would. With everyone else I work with in the industry, there is a great working relationship whereby a problem is recognized and then it is addressed and fixed by both of you putting your heads together. Great satisfaction is shared in this process and everyone comes off smelling like roses.

 

So, yet another boring installment in the behind the scenes saga of the AR. Sure it would be great if all we had to talk about was the great results we have with the AR, and I have had a few:

http://www.steadicamforum.com/forums/index...?showtopic=5648

Even this shot has problems from the AR. Study the moment when we reveal the dogs and make the switch to low mode. There is a noticeable drop down on the right side of the frame. This has everything to do wiith the direction I was swinging the rig, and the fact that there is so much friction within the system... so much so that in the featured still pictures of the shoot, if I made that switch any faster, the cage would lock up sensing that it's own friction was in fact a physical obstruction. The loss of level in the shot is another example of when Howard would say "It is good enough", because you don't see it due to the speed of the shot and the keystone angle. The problem with this attitude, is that it doesn't address the fact that there is a problem within the system.

 

Again the sad part is that those of us who have endured all the bad stuff don't receive acknowledgment, that "yes indeed there were some things wrong both with the AR and the support there at MK-V". Instead it is all played as if things have always been hunky dory. As those of us know who have been involved for an extended time, there are many skeletons in this closet.

[Martin Stacey]

Hi Will,

 

Thank you for a detailed description of your situation and some more detail about the technical issues that you have found with the AR. In the end, that's all the majority of us here are actually after. Unfortunately, if stcking my neck on the line and making myself open to abuse from Eric is what is neccessary in order to glean that information then so be it. I have no axe to grind in this situation. I am a long way away from any of you and the situations that I work in are completely different to the LA scene, and as such I don't know any of you from a bar of soap just as none of you know me, or just how much I actually do know about the situation.

All that the vast majority reading this want is the technical pros and cons of the system and, Will you are right, it is an inspiring notion that we are speaking on this from all four corners of the planet but as such, when you work as far away from any of the manufacturers as I do you are pretty much resigned to the fact that you have to sort it out yourself as the nearest spare part is two weeks away. I have local engineers that I work with when I'm not happy with something and then I just get on with it. There's no union issues in this country and everyone chips in to help everyone else to solve a problem on set because we just simply can't call up Tiffen etc. and have something overnighted. (I guess our "can do" attitude is why the local industry is pulling productions away from LA). My rather long winded point is simply that I'm not used to listening to all this bitching when all that is required sometimes is a little level headedness and maybe a solution can be found elsewhere.

If only people would actually be a little more open about the technical issues that they are having then just maybe someone would be prepared to offer up suggestions if they thought that they weren't just going to get shot down by the axe grinders here. If everyone wants to hang on the opening sentence of my previous post about upgrades rather than reading further into what I had to say then that's fine. I won't go into detail yet again for applauding the likes of yourself Will for being prepared to stick your neck on the line and be an early adopter of a new technology. You obviously saw something in it that was worth the effort but at the end of the day, if it has taken thirty years for steadicam technology to get to this point then isn't it reasonable to expect that such a huge advancement would take time and a little patience to perfect.

Anyway, here's my neck again, swing away.

 

Martin

[RonBaldwin]

"I guess our "can do" attitude is why the local industry is pulling productions away from LA"

 

uh...maybe the exchange rate has just a little to do with this? Nah, couldn't be the money (put the smiley of your choice here).