Dear Atlanta operators

[Alan G. Kelly SOC]

First off everyone here has good points and it's a tricky scenario. I'm not a fan of undercutting either and I've already got a kit that I could retire with it but I'm a relatively new op and I can't yet charge what the big boys do and that's less to do with worrying that my rate might get approved and much more to do with how I stack up against the vets. It's misrepresentation. I've been a feature assistant for years now and I work with the best ops in my city and abroad. I know what's expected and I set a high bar for myself. Of course I'm comparing my operating against vets of 20 + years but still we aim for the stars.

 

Nobody wants to be a bottom feeder but we all need work and experience to grow as professionals. Besides, I found it to be a somewhat self-regulating industry. The ops who are really good needn't worry about Buddy Low-Ball because any op with self respect isn't going to go there...and more importantly they don't have to because they are in demand. I'm not saying there aren't good ops who unfortunately low-ball but come on are there really that many of them? I think it's more symptomatic of PM's not knowing that they are screwing themselves when they hire hacks. Production triangle applies to us too.

 

Fast - cheap - good.

.....pick any two.

[Eric Fletcher S.O.C.]

Alan, that's incorrect about the independent contractor status. First off it's a 1099 job you are by definition an Independent contractor. Secondly according to the IRS we are Independent Contractors as operators because we "Materially participate in the creation of art". IE even though the shot is described to us we put our interpretation on it

[Alan Rencher]

Here's another perspective from a payroll company: http://www.abspayroll.net/payroll101-hiring-independent-contractors.html

 

Of you have your own loan-out company, it's a different story.

[brett.mayfield]

seems like there are two points being discussed in this thread

the first is about undercutting and how to respond

the second is about the legal position of independent contractors and productions.

 

-regarding undercutting, Janice and Will made good points and lay out appropriate ways to both talk about rates and learn about how to charge for one's level of experience and the shoot. i still get burned by not setting an appropriate price for some shoots, but like Janice essentially said, there is no price for good experience. with even a year or two in the game, an operator should get a pretty good idea of what others are charging on whatever the respective level of production may be, whether its an independent feature, tv show, music video, fashion film, etc. But many times the production just comes to the operator saying "we have this much for steadicam." and thats what youll get.

I do not feel that discussing rates should be so hushed. Its an important aspect of the business. I feel that talking openly about it would be stellar, but I agree that documentation is not a good idea. technically the exchange of prices that result in how competitors' prices are set is illegal under the Sherman Antitrust act, and it is upheld rather regularly, albeit on much grander scales than ours. but one should be informed.

 

-regarding independent contractor position, what Alan posted and the link provided are both what I have heard from more than one producer, as well as a relevant lawyer on the topic-it is not actually legal to hire our position as independent contractor because of most of the definition of independent contractor. that being said, this practice is unlikely to end. it is not up to me to tell a production how to bill, ill take the payment however it arrives, taxes in or out, cash, check, or high five, because in the end ill be paying taxes, though i wouldnt mind the workman's comp protection as a part of my being hired. in regards to "making art" ill let baldessari do the talking: http://www.vdb.org/titles/i-am-making-art

 

brett.

[Alan Rencher]

The reason I brought up independent contractors is simply to say that in California we are not considered independent contractors, and by that logic we are legally allowed to discuss our salaries without persecution. In keeping with that logic, collective bargaining isn't price fixing.

[Janice Arthur]

Brett

 

I feel like we're beating a dead horse. Not many will say exact numbers because when you're in that arena you know it

 

Just to be clear. "here is no price for good experience. with even a year or two in the game, an operator should get a pretty good idea of what others are charging on whatever the respective level of production may be, whether its an independent feature, tv show, music video, fashion film, etc.".

 

If your at a complete loss; 30k of gear 300.-500. Right 1%-3% ?

Local video tripod guy gets $500 a day and your a specialist and some experience so you say 800-1000. For yourself

$1100-1500.

 

Yes they do call with I've got $500 take it or leave it. Were you free Tuesday and it would be a lost day or do u want grocery money or maybe u want to meet this company?

 

All this depends on area and but again start making leaps of understanding you're not going to get people to throw out what they charge on a public forum. Buy guys a beer in your area a few times and start the conversation there.

 

Good luck

 

Janice

[Alfeo Dixon SOC]

1099 job you are by definition an Independent contractor. Secondly according to the IRS we are Independent Contractors as operators because we "Materially participate in the creation of art".

Legally to be 1099 one has to carry all the appropriate insurance such as General Liability and Workers Comp, this could have changed, but thats what one studio legal department came down with while hiring off-duty police officers. Have never heard of the "Materially participate in the creation of art" could you link us to that one Eric? Besides, when's the last time any of yous felt you were making "art."

[Rob Vuona SOC]

Alfeo,

 

Unfortunately undercutting happens in every market and will always happen !

 

The best we can do is educate the up comers and help them realize the disservice they are doing to themselves and others.

 

On the other points:

 

Union rates:

I have said it before.... they are in place for us only as the minimum they can pay us not the min you have to take, it's always negotiable. If your working for the union set rate then you need a class in negotiation.

=}

 

Discussing rates between operators:

Of course you can discuss rates and you can tell others to try to stick to those rates, that's not to say they are going to and or have to, it's merely a suggestion. A suggestion that will help your career but not necessarily that day.

 

Lastly Undercutting and referrals:

There are shows and operators that are established and rates are set, if your stepping into those circles on established shows or a higher caliber show then you better be charging the proper rate for yourself and for other operators. If the show is new, with an unknown director or DP and they are claiming poverty well guess what, they get a lesser inexperienced operator for less rate or they don't get steadicam at all. Undercutting only becomes an issue if you had an established rate or a history of getting that rate and not necessarily with that production just your rate. I will get calls all the time for shows and their offered rate is way less then par, I tell them my normal rate and then they move on. All of my colleagues that are in my genre and circles will also quote them the same rate, not because of rate fixing but because they are worth the rate and won't be bothered to do a gig for the price of rental only.

 

At some point all of you newbs will get sick of busting your ass for very little money and your experience and self worth will take over and you will say no to those gigs.

 

So many times and undercut is more of a misinformation situation than a blatant undercut because the under cutter doesn't know what his or her worth is or what the shows budget is. Once these people are informed they realize what they have lost.

 

There has been many times where some newer ops have stepped into my genre and into my circles of shows and shorted themselves because they just were misinformed, they just didn't know what to charge and production was happy to say yes to less. It's our jobs to educate the new guys so that they will understand the future is not about making the buck right now it's about making a living for the future.

[Rich Cottrell]

Re: workers comp insurance

 

Unless I was given bad info, or I am going off a misguided memory...

If you are incorporated I do not think you can get a workers comp policy that would cover yourself.

[Alfeo Dixon SOC]

That could be true Rich, I incorporated in 2011 and the film I did this for was in 2009. So this coverage took place before my incorp took place. I got a great quote for Tonya at WP Dolle