Finding Gigs / Trying to justify the expense

[Thomas English]

Ninja and co. are a funny old breed. They have approached the whole video side of things "from the other side" doing big visual shows that would never have been possible if approached proffesionaly. On the CanDu (anti depleted uranium tour) we were heading out into sarajevo/mostar shooting rave visuals around the bombed out city with digihi8 cameras, cutting them and playing it out at the first massive party having invited all the muslim kids and the christian kids in one big party "experiment". They are great as an organisation and ethos. Hence my slogging it about with a DV camera on a handheld glidecam2000.... which worked very well... if a little "creative"

 

The LowFi approach is now starting to look crap because its no longer cutting edge because anyone can do it as it no longer needs imagination and ingenuity to make everything work... it just works.The funny thing is that the quality of visual shows at clubs/raves is actually getting worse! because... well ... anyone can say they can do it!

 

Which is just the problem a lot of operators on here face, a person with a useless rig undercutting massively for the same major league jobs. Hence some of the "anger" The quality of work overall goes down and thus so does the perceived value of said work.

 

The point being.... if your trying to make something look wicked and creative on low budget u can use absolutely anything... a broom with a HDV camera magic armed to the end. Eventually you may end up producing a product that works well if very sketchy at the outset.

 

However if you want to render the director and DPs imagination reliably and consistently you need kit that is reliable and consistent. which cannot be said for the glidecam series bar the Gold which seems sound.

 

I have no problems with magic arming an aaton minima to a broom stick if thats what the shot requires, we are lucky to be working in a very creative industry. ..... I suspect I would get a broom made of aluminium though.... a klassen brrroom

 

Anyway... ninja are very cool... my mate Arun Taylor just lit and shot a promo for cold cut (matt black) for their new single .. you can watch it on

 

http://www.goclaygo.com/reel.html

[Matt Burton]

However if you want to render the director and DPs imagination reliably and consistently you need kit that is reliable and consistent. which cannot be said for the glidecam series bar the Gold which seems sound.

http://www.goclaygo.com/reel.html

 

Are you saying I should stay away from the v25 Tom ?

I haven't actually flown one yet but i'm thinking it would be a better option than a rusty old efp thats going to need instant upgrades I won't be able to afford ?

The v25 seems to be built on a scaled down gold platform, for the money it looks to be a winner.

I need some help here.

[John Steele]

However if you want to render the director and DPs imagination reliably and consistently you need kit that is reliable and consistent. which cannot be said for the glidecam series bar the Gold which seems sound.

http://www.goclaygo.com/reel.html

 

Are you saying I should stay away from the v25 Tom ?

I haven't actually flown one yet but i'm thinking it would be a better option than a rusty old efp thats going to need instant upgrades I won't be able to afford ?

The v25 seems to be built on a scaled down gold platform, for the money it looks to be a winner.

I need some help here.

 

Matt, perhaps Thomas hasn't flown a V25 yet but rest assured it's a great performer, it might have been good for glidecam to call it something other than a V series 'cause it seems to be getting clumped together with the V16/V20 and it's light years away from those rigs. You are correct in saying it's a scaled down Gold so they should have maybe called it the "Gold Lite" or something like that. I'm sure Job who owns both rigs will comment on how great a performer it is.

 

John.

[JobScholtze]

Nothing wrong with that rig matt.

But i dont feel i would like to discuss that overhere.

I suggest not to listen to much to people how never tryd it, but to try it for yourself. Than you have an opinion.

;)

[Thomas English]

I reckon Job s right, he knows the glidecam series and I really don t know it at all.

 

My only question if you were going to go the glidecam route is how upgradeable is it? is it the same arm post size 5/8th of an inch so you can borrow other peoples arms in an emergency or upgrade your arm?

 

Can u use a klassen vest?

 

I don t know the answere s to these questions. I have not flown a V25.

[Matt Burton]

I understand your position Job, however I feel this subject needs discussing.

If glidecam makes a good product then it should be recognised for what it is.

It would help if people in the industry knew this too as i'm sick and tired of snobby attitudes.

From what I can tell (never having flown the v25) It's a verry profesional tool and deserves to be talked about by profesionals at what ever level they are at.

 

Good points Thomas, these are things that initially put me off the v25. Then I realized that I wouldn't really need to upgrade the system in the short term.

I only intend to use the v25 as a stepping stone to a £20.000+ sytem, When I start pulling in big money work I won't upgrade but rarther replace the v25. Plus if I buy at their introductary price then in a year or two I can probably sell it for what I bought it for.

Win win situation me thinks.

[Marc Abernathy]

perhaps the glidecam has improved and is much better than it once was...

 

but you guys know that first impressions in this industry go a long way, and if over time ops on these huge budget pictures have flown "steadicam" brand or PRO MK-V brands and have hissed at the glidecam.. the producers et al noticed that and that was burned into their minds...

 

it would probably take a long time to get glidecam recognized as an industry workhorse given its bad rep from others...perhaps the v25 is just such the rig to do it?

 

good point above.. is this rig "hot swappable" with current more popular brands or EVEN the legacy 3A, EFP, brands?? that would also help it if its easily adaptable...

[Alec Jarnagin SOC]

Okay guys, I'm going to try and ignore the petty arguing that belittles our entire community, disgraces the fine art of the green screen, and has been almost enough to send even me packing.

 

Glidecam????? Just went to their web site and looked around a bit. First, if I understand it correctly, the V-25 is still a lower end model than the Gold. Someone here has placed it on a pedestal and scoffed at others for even considering a Flyer from Tiffen. A counterpoint, if you will. The criteria of a rig is performance for its given weight range. Yes, the Flyer can not take a lot of weight, but this may be a good thing. Again, you should judge a rig by its performance. The Flyer was designed to handle very light cameras. To say that a V-25 is better because it can handle more weight, opens the floodgates to possible weaknesses. What gauge wiring is running up the post? Is it a two stage post? Does it flex? Does the top stage flex (or its plates)? How does one adjust the socket block on the arm? This is a vital adjustment - perhaps it can be muscled when you are flying a DV camera, but I fear possible bodily harm with a 25 pound camera. True, Tiffen has made models without proper adjustments in the past, but it is getting away from that (again, leading instead of following). How is the gimbal? Can you pan flat? How serviceable is the rig? How long does it take to take apart the arm? I think these are legitimate questions - not name bashing.

 

As for the elite using something for name brand reasons, simply not true! If you bothered to read the archives, you'd see that there are many other brands used today by top operators. These brands have been welcomed to the community because they offer different, yet innovative approaches to camera stabilization. As someone who's first rig was a model 2 (when the 3a was king of the hill), I know what it is like to have no money. Now though, the quality of used rigs is more amazing than ever before (I think the PRO I is one of the best sleds ever made). At the end of the day though, what gear we use is a personal choice. So, please do as you may, but realize that we have made the purchases we have because we feel these are the tools that make our lives easier, our gear more invisible to us so that we may perform at a higher level on a daily basis. To suggest we do something for namesake is insulting and misinformed.

[jay kilroy]

Bravo Alec, Bravo! This is exactly what this forum was intended for. Intelligent, informed and understandable responses on all topics. We all should try this approach.

 

Jay

[John Steele]

Okay guys, I'm going to try and ignore the petty arguing that belittles our entire community, disgraces the fine art of the green screen, and has been almost enough to send even me packing.

 

Glidecam????? Just went to their web site and looked around a bit. First, if I understand it correctly, the V-25 is still a lower end model than the Gold. Someone here has placed it on a pedestal and scoffed at others for even considering a Flyer from Tiffen. A counterpoint, if you will. The criteria of a rig is performance for its given weight range. Yes, the Flyer can not take a lot of weight, but this may be a good thing. Again, you should judge a rig by its performance. The Flyer was designed to handle very light cameras. To say that a V-25 is better because it can handle more weight, opens the floodgates to possible weaknesses. What gauge wiring is running up the post? Is it a two stage post? Does it flex? Does the top stage flex (or its plates)? How does one adjust the socket block on the arm? This is a vital adjustment - perhaps it can be muscled when you are flying a DV camera, but I fear possible bodily harm with a 25 pound camera. True, Tiffen has made models without proper adjustments in the past, but it is getting away from that (again, leading instead of following). How is the gimbal? Can you pan flat? How serviceable is the rig? How long does it take to take apart the arm? I think these are legitimate questions - not name bashing.

 

As for the elite using something for name brand reasons, simply not true! If you bothered to read the archives, you'd see that there are many other brands used today by top operators. These brands have been welcomed to the community because they offer different, yet innovative approaches to camera stabilization. As someone who's first rig was a model 2 (when the 3a was king of the hill), I know what it is like to have no money. Now though, the quality of used rigs is more amazing than ever before (I think the PRO I is one of the best sleds ever made). At the end of the day though, what gear we use is a personal choice. So, please do as you may, but realize that we have made the purchases we have because we feel these are the tools that make our lives easier, our gear more invisible to us so that we may perform at a higher level on a daily basis. To suggest we do something for namesake is insulting and misinformed.

 

Hi Alec,

 

I'll try and answer as many of your V25 questions as I can. In terms of performance in my opinion it performs better than a flyer I have flown both and I much prefered the V25 so it's not just a weight range thing, and everyone goes on about how well the flyer performs so hopefully this may give an indication of how well the V25 performs. Yes the V25 is currently one step down from the gold, but it has been said by many who have flown both and from glidecam themselves that the V25 is very much a lightweight gold system in terms of build and performance.

 

What gauge wiring is up the post? I'm afraid I don't know that one

 

Is it a two stage post? Yes it is, no tools required to extend the post

 

Does it flex? Post or topstage or plates? No flexing that I've experienced, seems totally solid.

 

How does one adjust the socket block on the arm? The socket block has fore/aft and side to side adjustment, adjusted using screws on the socketblock.

 

How is the Gimbal? The Gimbal is very smooth, not tools adjustment, no stiction that I can detect, I can point the camera in one direction and walk 360 round the rig without touching the post and the camera stays pointing in the direction I left it.

 

Can you pan flat? Yes

 

In terms of service and how long to take apart the arm, I don't know, but I'm sure I'll find out soon enough.

 

I hope this helps, and at no time did anyone say that the flyer was not a good rig, because it is, it's a great rig in fact, but in this price range where the flyer and V25 both reside the V25 in my opinion and in the opinion of many others is better.

 

Any more questions and I'll do my best to answer.

 

John.

[Tom Wills]

I hope this helps, and at no time did anyone say that the flyer was not a good rig, because it is, it's a great rig in fact, but in this price range where the flyer and V25 both reside the V25 in my opinion and in the opinion of many others is better.

 

Any more questions and I'll do my best to answer.

 

John.

 

I know that I'm nowhere near the level of you professionals here, but I would like to say that all of this bickering really is unnecessary. Different rigs are good for different operators at different times with different cameras. Trying to say that one rig is "better" than another or that one rig doesn't stack up to others in its pricerange is just the way it may be in your eyes and in your situation. I know that if I were purchasing a Flyer or a V25 right now, I'd go for the Flyer, because most of the time I'll be flying 12lb ENG cameras and MiniDVs, and if I ever need a bigger rig, I can always find one to rent, plus I love the Flyer arm. Maybe that's not where others are, but that's my stand, so in my eyes, in my situation, the Flyer is better. Does that mean that everybody out there needs to go out and buy one? No! Of course not! The V25 is a great rig, and Glidecam should be commended for stepping away from the older V-Series rigs.

 

It's just not right to claim that one rig is better or that one rig is worth more, when it really is up to the buyer to decide what their needs are, where they are in terms of gear and money, and what they can afford to get. Brand-bashing, labeling rigs "better", and overall disrespect for the idea that the choice of which rig to buy and own is very personal seems to me like a waste. All of these rigs (the V25, the Flyer, and all the rest) are good rigs, and we all should know that. Beyond that it's the operator's choice.

 

Now to go back to my passtime, watching and soaking up information. :D

[John Steele]

I hope this helps, and at no time did anyone say that the flyer was not a good rig, because it is, it's a great rig in fact, but in this price range where the flyer and V25 both reside the V25 in my opinion and in the opinion of many others is better.

 

Any more questions and I'll do my best to answer.

 

John.

 

I know that I'm nowhere near the level of you professionals here, but I would like to say that all of this bickering really is unnecessary. Different rigs are good for different operators at different times with different cameras. Trying to say that one rig is "better" than another or that one rig doesn't stack up to others in its pricerange is just the way it may be in your eyes and in your situation. I know that if I were purchasing a Flyer or a V25 right now, I'd go for the Flyer, because most of the time I'll be flying 12lb ENG cameras and MiniDVs, and if I ever need a bigger rig, I can always find one to rent, plus I love the Flyer arm. Maybe that's not where others are, but that's my stand, so in my eyes, in my situation, the Flyer is better. Does that mean that everybody out there needs to go out and buy one? No! Of course not! The V25 is a great rig, and Glidecam should be commended for stepping away from the older V-Series rigs.

 

It's just not right to claim that one rig is better or that one rig is worth more, when it really is up to the buyer to decide what their needs are, where they are in terms of gear and money, and what they can afford to get. Brand-bashing, labeling rigs "better", and overall disrespect for the idea that the choice of which rig to buy and own is very personal seems to me like a waste. All of these rigs (the V25, the Flyer, and all the rest) are good rigs, and we all should know that. Beyond that it's the operator's choice.

 

Now to go back to my passtime, watching and soaking up information. :D

 

Tom please correct me if I'm wrong but the last time you posted regarding the flyer and V25 you hadn't flown either rig, is this still the case? I'm basing my opinions on experience of both rigs, if someone asks which one I think is better I will tell them.

 

John.

[Tom Wills]

Tom please correct me if I'm wrong but the last time you posted regarding the flyer and V25 you hadn't flown either rig, is this still the case? I'm basing my opinions on experience of both rigs, if someone asks which one I think is better I will tell them.

 

John.

 

My point was not my opinion on which was better. I thought I had made that clear. My opinion is my own. But, my post was directed at bickering and people claiming one rig is "better" than another. (It was not an attack on you by any means, I just quoted your post because it was an example of someone talking about a rig being "better")

 

No, I have not flown a Flyer. No, I have not flown a V25. No, I do not know how each of them preform under different circumstances. But do I think that they're both rigs that are good? Yes. I think it's just unnecessary to have these battles about one rig's superiority over another when really we should be all focused on getting the most out of whatever we have.

 

I'm sorry if anyone has taken my post in a bad light, I was only meaning to offer my opinion on why this bickering is unnecessary.

[Thomas English]

slighty off topic to the rig drama

 

How much does an early pro sled without monitor go for nowadays?

 

cheers

 

thomas

[John Steele]

No, I have not flown a Flyer. No, I have not flown a V25. No, I do not know how each of them preform under different circumstances. But do I think that they're both rigs that are good? Yes. I think it's just unnecessary to have these battles about one rig's superiority over another when really we should be all focused on getting the most out of whatever we have.

 

I'm sorry if anyone has taken my post in a bad light, I was only meaning to offer my opinion on why this bickering is unnecessary.

 

Tom, the only reason we got into the flyer v V25 debate is because Matt was concerned that he was perhaps not making the right decision in upgrading to a V25, people with experience of both rigs were just trying to reassure him that his choice was a good one. Forums are pretty useless if debates on which equipment is best is frowned upon. There is no bickering going on, evey posting I have made in this thread has been based on personal experience and at the end of the day is my opinion.

 

I would also advise you that if you do decide to buy a rig, try out the V25, you say you love the flyer arm well you may love the V25 arm once you try it too.

 

John.