Premium Members Brant S. Fagan SOC Posted January 20, 2004 Premium Members Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Folks-- Why not just get both, that way when the crap pie is served, just pass and say, "No thanks, I'm driving." I do in fact own both a Preston and two BFD units. Both systems are great and so far, knock on some wood please, neither system has failed me. Plus, by having both systems available, I can even set up the other system for another camera and try for hero status! So far, I cannot claim to having been fired for my choice of FF system, but I do believe that at some point in your career, you must make choices that either advance your standing in the marketplace or rather hold you back. It is a shame that attitudes from others can force you into big expeditures, especially when those folks will sometimes turn on you faster than a NYC cab. If this career was really all that easy, everyone would do it. Except for the producers, of course. Best, Brant "Finally no so damn RFC in NH" Fagan PS We did have temps WELL below zero all last week so when it hit 26*F on Saturday, we felt like Coppertone Time again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Hardwick Posted January 20, 2004 Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 Hi, If I understand this right, the three-motor Preston system costs around $15,000. Considering that there is nothing even remotely specialised or clever about a radio-controlled focus system, with the possible exception of the motors, I'd say you're being fleeced like a well-shorn sheep. I believe it was Mr. Papert who once told me that steadicam equipment companies weren't just trying for a piece of the well-paid-operator action, but crikey! Phil Sure, that's why there are so many manufacturers just jumping into the wireless focus racket, right? There are basically three current manufacturers that seem to make up about 90% of the steadicam market as far as I can tell. Preston, Bartech, and Scorpio (yes yes, I know there are others, but these are the three that most seem to go with). Well, there are far more manufacturers of camera stabilizing systems (steadicams) than wireless focus devices! What makes you think that there's nothing special or difficult about the design of a reliable and accurate wireless focus system? Have you seen aand tested all three units? I would say that the prices for all three are not out of line. In fact, if you want to get right down to it, I think Jim could probably sell his sytem for more than he does. I'm not trying to suggest that you do this Jim ;) My point is that this is specialized gear with quite a bit of R&D time and money invested by the manufacturers, They deserve to be able to make a living off of their hard work for their good products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Members JimBartell Posted January 20, 2004 Premium Members Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 I would say that the prices for all three are not out of line. In fact, if you want to get right down to it, I think Jim could probably sell his sytem for more than he does. I'm not trying to suggest that you do this Jim ;) When I first introduced the BFD (and it was $1500 at the time, a price I had set before I actually built any!), many a steadicam accessory manufacturer (who shall remain nameless) told me I was selling it far too cheaply. The feeling I got from them was "Hey, if you don't gouge everyone too they might figure out how badly we are ripping them off". Also, my development costs were a fraction of what other companies spend to develop a product. I know over $300,000 was spent on the LC3, for example, and it didn't even work. However, I must admit that if the Steadicam market were my only intended market I would have sold it for more because the marketplace just isn't that big. Instead, by keeping the price below $2000, my plan was to make it attractive to 1AC's, who really could use one but never had bought one before because of the high price tag or poor performance. Also, there are a lot more 1AC's than OP's so the market is much larger. More than a third (and rising) of my sales go to this market so I'd say it has been a success so far. So don't worry, the price isn't going anywhere. It'll stay where it is, offering a great value to everyone, and taking over the world one lens at a time. Jim "Blofeld" Bartell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Rhodes Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 Hi, Mr. Bartell said: > The feeling I got from them was "Hey, if you don't gouge everyone too they > might figure out how badly we are ripping them off". It would be highly impolitic of me to point out just how long I've been saying this, so I won't... Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Rhodes Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 Hi, > What makes you think that there's nothing special or difficult about the design of > a reliable and accurate wireless focus system? I would like to point out here that I think it can be really stupid to try and figure out the worth of something based on how difficult you think it is to make, but since I've been asked, that's exactly what I'm about to do. To answer the question: Because the bit that makes it clever, and attractive over its competitors (auto setup, range stretch, etc) is just software, and software is free to replicate. I have no idea which microcontroller Mr. Bartell uses in the BFD, but if it was me, it'd be something like Atmel's AT90 series. The most expensive of those is about £15, and I'm confident I could develop version-one software for it in a lazy week (Give or take tweaking once it's done.) I appreciate that this isn't really the point, it's the big dial you've got to have made which will cost way more than the rest of it, but that's the bit that increases the length of bullet points on the spec sheet. Not that it's any of my business but I think Mr. Bartell's pricing is entirely fair for the BFD controller. Silent, high-power servos are always going to be a bit tricky, though I'd point out that Jimmy Jib operators have been using modified radio control model gear for ages with no major issues (nudge, wink.) Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guillermo nespolo Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 the only problem with the bdf is that not all ac have a chance to play arround with one.... best part of the bdf jim bartell its a exelent guy, and u dont have to be a rock star of the steadicam word to get him on the phone when ever u have a problem(the only problem that i have with the bdf was that my assistant burn the unit by no pluging the unit right) .....did jim charge me for the repair ? nop hi not charge me and hi do the job in one day ..with the new software and all . thanks a lot jim ....(i was the argetinian guy ho seand u the unit during the soa workshop) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Members Eric Fletcher S.O.C. Posted February 17, 2004 Premium Members Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 Hi, > What makes you think that there's nothing special or difficult about the design of > a reliable and accurate wireless focus system? I would like to point out here that I think it can be really stupid to try and figure out the worth of something based on how difficult you think it is to make, but since I've been asked, that's exactly what I'm about to do. To answer the question: Because the bit that makes it clever, and attractive over its competitors (auto setup, range stretch, etc) is just software, and software is free to replicate. I have no idea which microcontroller Mr. Bartell uses in the BFD, but if it was me, it'd be something like Atmel's AT90 series. The most expensive of those is about £15, and I'm confident I could develop version-one software for it in a lazy week (Give or take tweaking once it's done.) I appreciate that this isn't really the point, it's the big dial you've got to have made which will cost way more than the rest of it, but that's the bit that increases the length of bullet points on the spec sheet. Not that it's any of my business but I think Mr. Bartell's pricing is entirely fair for the BFD controller. Silent, high-power servos are always going to be a bit tricky, though I'd point out that Jimmy Jib operators have been using modified radio control model gear for ages with no major issues (nudge, wink.) Phil Hey Phil, I've got a GREAT idea, rather then talking about how easy it is to build and how over priced the others are and how you would choose this or that and yours would be the bestest in the world. Go build one and sell it. let us Test it and see what a "Real Phil Rhodes Approved Follow focus" is. Until then Stop, stop posting crap critising everything out there, it get's REALLY tiresome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Members Peter Abraham Posted February 17, 2004 Premium Members Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 I'd point out that Jimmy Jib operators have been using modified radio control model gear for ages with no major issues (nudge, wink.) You're showing an appalling lack of knowledge of the world that Jib Operators live in. I've spent hundreds of days with Jib Ops- frequently a live show that hires Steadicam will hire Jib. A good friend of mine has become an absolute master of both Steadicam and Jib- he owns both systems. It is simple fact that the small lightweight "jib motors" sold with the bracketry are chronically failing on shoots. While they rarely burn out, they do skip off lenses. Many times per work day. I have NEVER met a Jib Op who was pleased with the set-up sold by Stanton and other jib makers, for lens control of focus. ( Zoom of course, is done by the same rocker-style pot system that is used in a J-7 and normal camera zoom, and they rarely if ever fail since they plug into the zoom module that is integral to video camera handgrips ). There's no nudge, and there's no wink. The system currently used by Jib Ops is awful. The BFD offers a terrific step up away from the shoddy, rinky-dink set-up currently used. It is simply poor engineering to design a bracket that makes use of the tiny threaded holes IN the barrel of a video lens as a method of hanging a motor and bracket. Peter Abraham, E.M.T. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guillermo nespolo Posted February 17, 2004 Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 thaking about industry standars....on the soa worshop we thalk about haw u get your jobs or haw u dont get your jobs one of the main thing on this are ac . somethimes producer ask for advice with what steadicam operator hi can call for a job and there is where the thing with the preston came along... but its not only that for shure a ac can blaim on ff his soft ..but what about of the rest of the shots ...where ff its not requirid ? in the end its all about not be ignorant...yes preston has a great reputation ....but get your head open an try new stuff ....the more ac play arround with the bfd more people love it....in the end all fears desapear..and they do not nothice the diference ....but your poket did Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Members flemming laybourn Posted February 17, 2004 Premium Members Report Share Posted February 17, 2004 Hello fellow operators! Just read some of Landau´s writings on how to behave on a chat like this, And thought that he was a bit off with his criticism...but then I decided to read about focus systems......and everything changed....after reading this post for a while I was thinking .... hmm if I replace "BFD" with "Christina Aquilera" and let "Britney" take the place of "Preston"....It acually all fell into place... :D I think that comparing apples and grapes are useless. I myself have a ... no I won´t say it, but I have had this focus system for 7 years without any problems, and I wouldn´t change it for anything in the world. But It doesn´t make me a better operator...at all. All it does is give me one less aspect of this "insane" job, to worry about. And isn´t that what its all about...? Having equipment that gets the job done...? All the best Flemming Laybourn Denmark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Members RonBaldwin Posted February 25, 2004 Premium Members Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 You all suck! Real steadicam ops pull their own focus...and from the barrel!! Nothing gives the shot that organic...dare I say, "free-range" look better than a good twist of the barrel (well, maybe bumping into an extra or set piece). Get with the program guys -- save $$, better looking footage, and back to the lost art of the "one handed technique." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Members Peter Abraham Posted February 25, 2004 Premium Members Report Share Posted February 25, 2004 --muttering-- no wonder Ron gets all the cool gigs. He's got it all figured out !!! The bastard. :lol: Hey, your idea kind of dovetails nicely with my "no monitor" idea over in the Monitors forum. No monitor. One handed shooting. Pull focus off the barrel. The only thing missing is the tripod....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Members RonBaldwin Posted February 26, 2004 Premium Members Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 WooHoo! No monitor...you are a god Peter! Think of the weight savings. I have just fashioned a giant cross-hair out of coat hangers and will swap it out with my monitor tomarrow on the set. Knock off a few more aks and soon my pro will be a glidecam. Forget Dogma-95, this is Peter-04. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Rhodes Posted February 26, 2004 Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 Hi, >Go build one and sell it. What would the point be? Bartell's already done it. P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Members JimBartell Posted February 26, 2004 Premium Members Report Share Posted February 26, 2004 Hi, >Go build one and sell it. What would the point be? Bartell's already done it. P Word. Jim "No more competition needed, thank you" Bartell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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