ericoh Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 Once again, the tools get the blame. Isn't there a saying about a good workman never blaming his tools..? :) At any rate, although I upgraded to a preston, I think Jim makes an outstanding product and I still speak highly his FF system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Alec Jarnagin SOC Posted January 8, 2004 Moderators Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 Forgot about this one.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Members Peter Abraham Posted January 10, 2004 Premium Members Report Share Posted January 10, 2004 This brings up an interesting retro-fit. I adored my BFD's, and are perilously close to being the guy who owned # 3 EVER MADE and # 26, sold them both and now may shop to Jim for yet a new system.  My BFD's never slipped on their own. There was simply zero drift. Ever. Period. The ONLY time I saw a shift in marks was when I'd handed the sled to a big burly grip after a murderously long take ( well, takes ) and the grip- not knowing better- held along the top stage in front for balance. His hand must have moved along the knurled wheels, and voila- shift in calibration. Those wheels have a lot of friction to them, they cannot just "slip" out.  It was obvious and extreme, we realized what had happened before the next take, and in 20 seconds re-set the rig. Jim- perhaps a tiny cap of some kind? I know that it'd be rough to retro-fit a cap and clasp mechanism into existing BFD's, but this is the only thing I've ever seen that could move calibrations.  Now, as to the person who claimed that lots of big time Ops use a Seitz or WRC-III/IIIA. Those systems were prone to hard signal interference from a variety of sources. Since the sampling rate was so slow, and the way the signals were sent and recieved ( Jim, step in and slap me around and correct any mistakes here ok? ), the units were able to be interfered with directly with an outside RF signal. A walkie talkie on set, a cabbie with an illegally strong radio, and the single most distressing fact of life on our planet: Standing RF Waves. They do literally eminate from the core outwards into space, they are a peculiarity of the electronic fields surrounding the earth. You can turn on a Seitz or WRC-IIIA or WRC IV and walk around slowly, miles from a walkie talkie or other RF source and suddenly your motor will twitch hard, and twitch back to its previous mark. Standing Waves. Ach.  I had the best take of the night on Spike Lee's "X" ruined by an RF hit. I was using a WRC-IV at the time.  There are no responsible Ops using technology that allows RF hits to stop or alter their signals to their FF units. For the cost of a BFD you never have to sweat dalies again. The whole issue of brand names guaranteeing work and careers, I will leave to others to hash out.  And besides- if your Preston box fails, you have a useless hunk of metal the price of a Mazda Protege LX, and NO FF. IF your BFD xmitter OR reciever fails ( I haven't heard of such, but eventually all electronics fail ), you simply take the secondary or tertiary unit from your case. Shift the channel knob on the outside, and you're off ! Of course, one could make the claim that you could just as easily own three complete Preston systems. For $ 45,000......... :o  Peter Abraham, E.M.T. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Members JimBartell Posted January 10, 2004 Premium Members Report Share Posted January 10, 2004 Jim- perhaps a tiny cap of some kind? I know that it'd be rough to retro-fit a cap and clasp mechanism into existing BFD's, but this is the only thing I've ever seen that could move calibrations. Thanks for the support Peter! Â The issue of a knob cover came up early on, but the friction on the knobs and the fact that they are recessed below the surface seems to be acceptable. However, I have seen some units where the OP fashioned a cover out of the ubiquitous Velcro. Â Let's face it, any unit can lose calibration if the motor jumps a tooth, so the AC should be checking the marks before every shot regradless of which system is being used. And I have had reports of every sytem losing signal at one time or another, so learn to deal, folks, because that's RF for you. Â Jim "arts & crafts maven" Bartell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Members Bill Brummond Posted January 11, 2004 Premium Members Report Share Posted January 11, 2004 If your FF system is preventing you from getting a job, maybe you would like to rent my extra Preston system. It's quite complete and currently available. Â Bill Brummond Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Members Erwin Landau Posted January 13, 2004 Author Premium Members Report Share Posted January 13, 2004 And besides- if your Preston box fails, you have a useless hunk of metal the price of a Mazda Protege LX, and NO FF. IF your BFD xmitter OR reciever fails ( I haven't heard of such, but eventually all electronics fail ), you simply take the secondary or tertiary unit from your case. Shift the channel knob on the outside, and you're off ! Of course, one could make the claim that you could just as easily own three complete Preston systems. For $ 45,000......... Â Hi Peter, Â Not everybody is Mark O'Kane, and even he only owns two 3 channel systems... Â It's very admairable that you are lobbying for Jim Bartell, BFD, Best system for that price out there, hands down. (Does that get me a T-shirt, Jim?). But don't trash other systems because of the price... Â You still get what you pay for. (Jim went out to replace the now almost useless and unreliable units like the Seitz, WRC-4 and LC-3, for a great and fair price. Now with the M-1 out there it's a great system... Jim succeded.) Â Yes, you could have a Back up MDR ($3450.-) a Back up Microwave Link ($3300.-) and even a Second Hand unit ($2950.-) but all of that does not add up to $45'000.- Â I couldn't afford that and I'm sure most of the operators Worldwide could not either... Â But the fact is that you most of the time don't have to. How often did you have to exchance the compleat system? Most of the time it's a Cable, or maybe a dropped Motor, maybe even the Microwave, you still own a Hardwire? Right? Â It's your personal decision what kind of FF system you own or can afford. My original post was about how people are forced into buying certain Equipment, Again it's your choice to buy the Equipment they ask you for or not to take the job. Â My choice to buy the Preston was guided by the enviroment I'm working in, the people I'm working with and the track record that comes with owning a Preston. And at the time there was no good new Motor available, the Heden sucked and got me a couple of times into trouble... (Not Bartech's mistake but it was one of the reasons I went with the Preston). Â Did a BFD ever fail on set? Yes it did when I used to use one, did my Preston ever fail? Yes it did once. Boths times with both Units (Preston and Bartech) I received great Customer Service/Support. Â Will my Preston let me down fewer times then my BFD? Time will tell... Â If your FF system fails, it doesn't matter what system, it turns into a hunk of metal, it's just how often and how quickly can you get back up. Â The fact is that the Preston ALMOST never fails, That most AC's prefer it over any other FF system, That many AC' s also love the BFD. Â Let's leave it to the individual Operator to decide... Â Let's leave it at this... Â Â Erwin landau, SOC www.landaucamera.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Members Erwin Landau Posted January 13, 2004 Author Premium Members Report Share Posted January 13, 2004 Oh one more... Â The BFD is great as you can buy individual Channels. Â Check your Math... Â Let's compare apples with apples: (Shall we?) Â A 2 motor system from Bartech will top the scale at almost $10'000.- A 2 motor system from Preston depending where you buy it from tops at about $15'000,- Â A 3 motor system from Bartech raffly $15'000.- A 3 motor system from Preston about $20'000.- Â Â The question is, do you want or can afford the additional $5000.-???? (of course it will vary apone your AKS and Cables, with both systems...) Â Or can you just afford one channel and 6 months later a second one... guess what you will most likely buy the BFD... Right? Â Â Erwin"check the numbers"Landau, SOC www.landaucamera.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Members Peter Abraham Posted January 13, 2004 Premium Members Report Share Posted January 13, 2004 Erwin, Â This is a message board. Tim does a lovely job running it, and it's all of ours. It's truly poor form to state, " Let's leave it at that", essentially telling our entire community that you've decided the conversation is over. Â By very design, a thread dies when nobody else posts to it. Not when one member decides they want to shush everyone else up. Â Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Members Erwin Landau Posted January 14, 2004 Author Premium Members Report Share Posted January 14, 2004 This is a message board. Tim does a lovely job running it, and it's all of ours. It's truly poor form to state, " Let's leave it at that", essentially telling our entire community that you've decided the conversation is over.By very design, a thread dies when nobody else posts to it. Not when one member decides they want to shush everyone else up. Â Peter, Â Why so defenssive? Â Let's leave it at this... Price wise. I thought you read the whole post. I was not aware that I had to specify and round up the post. Unless of course the post was to long and went of topic, my apologies for that... Â The dicussion, thanks to you, went into a fight "BFD versus Preston" and how much they cost. I think everybody is aware how expensive our Profession is. And that was the originator of this Post. Â Why do you have to replace a perfectly working unit with another perfectly working unit? (And we agree that boths units work perfectly... right?) Just because of a different name? Â Â I didn't shush anybody... Â Isn't an argument there to be argued? Then argue and reply to the rest of the post and don't get offended by one (trying to end the post) closing line... Â If it offends you that much, I will delete it (let me know). Â Trully your, Â Erwin"Stop hitting me!"Landau, SOC www.landaucamera.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Members Peter Abraham Posted January 14, 2004 Premium Members Report Share Posted January 14, 2004 Well, gee. It would have involved those two systems anyway, they are the prevailing systems it would seem. At any rate, my point about the Preston was that all of the system lives in one box. And yes, for $ 15,000 you have one system. For $ 45,000 you own three sets. Thank you, I can indeed do the math ! Â At any rate, I agree with the OP that there are times when we are blamed for the shortfalls of our gear. It's always give and take. It is very often the case that a newer Op has gear whose ability to deliver excellent work far exceeds THEIR abilities so far. Well made gear, well made accessories- but lack of experience. Â The follow focus stuff seems the exception. If you own an older system, you really could run a risk of having to spin out and back in, despite your efforts and those of your good A.C. Â I got fired off a gig for having video transmitters that couldn't cut it, I've no doubt but that people get fired off gigs for f.f. gear that delivers flawed dailies. Â Peace, peace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Members Charles Papert Posted January 14, 2004 Premium Members Report Share Posted January 14, 2004 Regardless of which system I own, I profess to not getting the math either, Peter. Â The Preston system doesn't all "live in one box". It's a motor driver, a hand unit, a transmitter and a receiver and two motors--which makes 6 pieces. The comparable Bartech system is only four pieces as the transmitter and receiver are built into the motor driver and hand unit. Agreed so far? Â If one component fails, you can replace it with another individual component, not the whole system. If the transmitter dies, you can always hardwire direct to the motor driver from the hand unit. Three channels, fully functional. Â I think what Erwin is getting at, and what I'm not really sure is a fair comparison, is that you are suggesting that if your Bartech focus unit dies, you just pull out your iris unit and keep working. However, if your Preston hand unit dies, you seem to be saying that you need an entire $15,000 system to replace it, as opposed to another $3000 hand unit. And there is a hardwire hand controller which easily replaces the focus unit and could be used for iris and even zoom in a pinch that just requires a motor and cable to get you back in and working. Obviously no-one likes dealing with cables--but then again, I can't imagine an AC being thrilled at having to use an iris slider to pull focus. But that's emergencies for you. Â I understand the principle behind the modular system, and I think it's great. I think Jim's system is a great value and it's no mystery why it has been so successful. The BFD and the FIZ co-exist, appealing to different folks with different needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Rhodes Posted January 14, 2004 Report Share Posted January 14, 2004 Hi, Â If I understand this right, the three-motor Preston system costs around $15,000. Considering that there is nothing even remotely specialised or clever about a radio-controlled focus system, with the possible exception of the motors, I'd say you're being fleeced like a well-shorn sheep. Â I believe it was Mr. Papert who once told me that steadicam equipment companies weren't just trying for a piece of the well-paid-operator action, but crikey! Â Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Members JimBartell Posted January 14, 2004 Premium Members Report Share Posted January 14, 2004 It's very admairable that you are lobbying for Jim Bartell, BFD, Best system for that price out there, hands down. (Does that get me a T-shirt, Jim?). Erwin, Â You didn't get one when I was handing them out? Dang! The only ones I have left are the ones I wear, but you can have one if you don't mind the food stains (I love them cheeseburgers). Â FYI, A BFD/M-One combo with 3 most popular start/stop cables is $4260 ($4446.45 with California sales tax). Â Jim "pinching pennies" Bartell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Members Peter Abraham Posted January 14, 2004 Premium Members Report Share Posted January 14, 2004 Good points, Charles. I think what I didn't articulate well is the simple fact that if your Preston box goes down, you have no focus iris OR zoom. If a single-channel box like a BFD goes down, you have lost that one channel- but not the whole schmeg. And, you can switch channels on another xmitter and get up and going quickly. Â Unless the basic design of the Preston hand controller has completely altered, it is still three channels, sharing one box, power supply and whatnot, yes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Members RonBaldwin Posted January 20, 2004 Premium Members Report Share Posted January 20, 2004 yes, thre preston uses one box with 3 channels (the mdr, or motor driver). Â rb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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