Flying AR

[Christopher TJ McGuire SOC]

Hi Job, It was good to see you too!

 

Do you have any photos of your mule in action, cheers...

 

Best Chris.

[WillArnot]

A "mule soiree" and "kegerators" would be great and all, but I would like to see this thread get back to some important questions.

 

Chris, how's it going mate? I would love to talk on the phone, email and inuendo don't serve anyone well. Lets face it, you are the MK-V / AR poster boy wether you like it or not, so people will take you to task over what you say. I am currently back and forth early and late shooting in the mountains of Morocco and not in convenient internet or phone range. I left you one phone message just over a month ago and didn't hear back from you.

 

1) You never replied to the original question in this thread. It did not question your "experience with kit", but your implication that the "AR" was dropping it's association with the US patent holding "Alien" project (the 'A' in AR), and now calling the MK-V version the "Automatic Revolution". Is this an official name change on the part of MK-V?

 

2) I have perused your photo gallery and correct me if I'm wrong but I can't find one picture of you flying the AR with a 35 mm set up. Do you have any pics from Harry Potter where I assume you were shooting 35mm, and if so was it a sync sound camera? What lenses, set up, sled weight etc were you dealing with?

 

3) All the lenses in your pictures appear to be zooms albeit on lightweight video setups without a mattbox etc (what do you do for filtration?), so I am wondering if you maintain the ability to zoom within the shot or do you simply forego the zoom control and use it as a variable prime lens?

 

I ask because I am currently flying a Panavision XL with the Angenieux 15-40mm Zoom lens (4 lbs) with all 3 preston lens motors in place for Focus, Iris, and Zoom. This serves two purposes. Being able to bury a small zoom into a move can be a beautiful thing and something I don't want to tell a DP or Director he can't do. Secondly, changing lenses with the AR, especially in 35mm can be time consuming to say the least, using the zoom almost eliminates this (unless we go to the 50mm Primo which weighs more than the zoom). As you pointed out Chris, balancing the AR is no small feat!

 

Steadicam / AR shots are often designed around challenging lighting scenarios so an Iris control is almost always a requirement for me. All in all, my PRO Arm is set to 85% with 4 Black springs, so I'm looking at around 69-70lbs according to GPI. The max payload on the PRO Arm is 72 lbs. With vest and arm I am carrying close to 100 lbs around!

 

I notice you went without a mattbox in the picture over the stairs at the start of this thread. I can't tell if it is video again or not, I can't see a mag unless it is an Aaton 35. Even so, I guess the lighting is such that you can give up the weight of the mattbox and not have to protect the lens. I assume you are doing this to save weight and no filtration is required? I wish I were so lucky. Blackwrap can sometimes make a great lightweight lens protector, but you'd better hope the DP doesn't ask for a filter!

 

I had Panavision make a custom narrow throat adaptor in order to preserve the vertical orientation of the mag and yet keep the mag as close as possible to the camera body. This again serves several purposes. What is not apparent in your pictures or at the demos at trade shows is just how cumbersome and awkward a 35mm film magazine is in the AR. None of your pics, even the picture of Howard on the MK-V site, involve a real 35mm film camera with magazine. The cable routing hence becomes an additional time consuming chore.

 

I also see how long you and Howard fly your sled with the AR, which I understand for demo purposes, but in real world scenarios this is often totally impractical on a confined set. In addition to the fact that it is quite an ugly angle to film your star actor a foot above their eye height! A long sled like in your pictures lends to easy clearance while switching modes, but what happens when you make your sled short enough to work on a real set and film your leading lady at a favourable height?

 

My experience is that I have to mount as much weight as possible to the bottom of the sled in order to achieve an acceptable "Gimbal to lens" distance that will allow me to make a smooth switches between Lo and Hi mode. One way I help achieve this is to mount my Preston receiver at the very bottom of my sled. This is another element that I don't see properly addressed at trade shows or in your photo galleries. I see that at most there is one lens motor working, and in Howard's picture on the website the receiver is mounted to the back of the video camera. This is great for video or single channel applications, but what happens in 35mm, changing film mags, or the DP wants to add a 2nd channel for Iris, let alone a 3rd for zoom???

 

4) Therefore: is MK-V saying that the AR is only good for video and lightweight applications, industrials etc? I just don't see any full blown 35mm sync sound camera set ups in photos or at trade shows, that are practical working scenarios.

 

5) In several of your pics on the yacht your are using the new gimbal control device. I have asked Rebecca several times and have not had a definitive reply as to wether or not it is actually available for upgrade or purchase yet? Is it officially available now?

 

6) In the pics where you are rolling the camera, the monitor is also off level in unison with the camera. Does this mean that if you roll the camera 360° that the monitor will roll as well and you will lose sight of it while it is upside down??

 

Please tell us what the exact nature of the gimbal control device involves since everything anyone has seen has been a prototype.

 

As I ask you these questions I am also bringing to light my experience with 35mm sync sound set ups as I hope the newbies who are dazzled by the AR concept also begin to really think through these issues before diving in. As you rightly point out Chris, much full time shooting experience is very necessary. My personal concern is to preserve the integrity of this great concept and not have it in the hands of the inexperienced who then give it a bad name because they don't know what they are doing.

 

Steadicam has suffered this fate from alot of 'hack' operators jumping on the band wagon and it has challenged the ability of the able and experienced to keep our rates high where they should be for the hard work and years of dedication we have invested.

 

I want to thank Rebecca at MK-V for bearing with me as I continue to solve certain shortcomings within the system. I am still not sure who I can talk true tech stuff with as Howard hasn't returned any of the past 15+ emails to MK-V. This is not a dig at Howard, I assume he is very busy with work and trade shows, I just want there to be a cohesive source of progress to make the AR better. It would appear that with such a sophisticacted device as the AR there should be more than Rebecca who I can talk to at MK-V.

 

I noticed the 'Pioneer' page of operators has been removed from the AR website so perhaps Chris you could help put me in touch with other AR operators who are flying 35mm sync sound cameras in their AR. I feel awefully alone!!

 

Many Thanks. I will CC this to your email too. Hopefully we can catch up in LA or on the phone eventually. Morocco is getting the best of us at the moment as 70 mph winds wiped out our base camp at 9000 ft up in the mountains this morning!!

 

Cheers,

 

Will

[John Buzz Moyer]

Will,

 

I'll be happy to talk to you and anyone else with questions about the AR. I've been very busy since April and will continue to be so until mid December. I really don't have the time to post all of my thoughts about and experience with the AR to be honest. I've have had quite alot of success with the system (Arri LT, 235 and Panavision XL). You can see it used in a trailer for the film "Norbit" on many different web sites. It's the shot with the lemonade stand.

 

I'm currently using the Viper system and will at some point stick it in the thing to see if it will work as well as it did with everything else. The fiber cable will be interesting but it should work fine.

 

I have quite a few shots of me with Arri LT and the 235 that I promised to get to Howard for the web site but I just haven't been home long enough to deal with it. One picture shows that I had a pan axis gyro with the AR that I used to reduce wandering during a long vfx pov shot. I recently used the AR on a process trailer, walking around a Motorcycle with two actors. Then went on to the front of the insert car for tracking shots over their shoulder then down to 3 inches off the ground. I was very surprised at how the Ar reduced the all too common wind effects from such a position.

 

Yes, mounting all the crap is a pain, but it's nothing that can't be dealt with in my opinion. I've had only the need for 2 motors and has success mounting the mdr to the camera with velcro. No it didn't come off and jam anything...just push on it hard...it was fine. I made it clear to everyone on the set that with this equipment, we may need some extra time, but fortunately up to this point I've had great success, and the crew that I've been with for some time as well as some day players, took it to task and we all made it happen with limited to no delay.

 

As far as balance top to bottom, I used a large brick on the bottom and two hytrons for the 235 and this allowed a large amount of gimbal to top stage clearance. I found the over all weight equivalent to a sled with a compact on it. The LT and XT however does require a slightly longer post to get more clearance and I don't use the big brick for weight , I use 3 hytrons and just bend over more and push down. Yes, it's heavy, but because you can shoot across your body I found it less tiring to operate than standard off to the side mode.

 

Like I said, If you want to talk about the AR, you can call me. I'm not a salesman, I'm just an operator making a living. The AR seemed to be a great thing to figure out...I find myself thinking of different shots to do. I've been lucky to have a few D.P. 's and Directors embrace it and use it on their movies. It is new for sure, and there will are alot of things to figure out, but I think as talented a group of people we are, who else better to do it.

 

Thanks,

 

John "Buzz" Moyer

[WillArnot]

Hey Buzz,

 

Great to hear from you. This is spectacular news. We need success stories in the AR world.

 

Loved the Norbit trailer, can't wait to see the movie. Wish there was just a tad more of the Lemonade stand, what there was looked absolutely 1st class! For those who don't know, the lemonade stand is a big AR sequence in the movie.

 

I watched it at: http://www.apple.com/trailers/dreamworks/norbit/

Is there another address?

 

On the finer points of mounting and balancing, do you have some ballpark measurements? I find I need at least 12-13" Gimbal to Lens center in order to clear for switches, where 14-16" is ideal. Which leads me to the mounting of the Preston MDR, the heaviest of most focus receivers (around 1.5 lbs? Erwin??). Can you give a few more details for us all on where you put the MDR for the film cameras? I imagine it has to be different for each camera?

 

There is enough space on top of the 235, that probably worked quite well. My experience with the 235 was again with the Angenieux 15-40mm zoom with all 3 motors working and some particularly tight spaces to fit through on set such that the entire sled length had to be less than 46" from the top of the AR cage to the very bottom of the battery cage/MDR. What sort of sled length were you going with on the 235 w/ your battery set up?

 

Velcro has always been a friend, but I'm curious where you put the MDR on the LT? You must have put it on the cam right side since there is zero room on top in the cage. By creating an off-center mass (Arris are so nicely center-massed) and therefore taking the lens off nodal in the circular cage, Did you have any issues when switching lenses and re-balancing?? I just put up some pics when I was still figuring out the AR from April 2005. Looking at them again I'm surprised you could even put the MDR on the right.

 

http://homepage.mac.com/willglide/Steadica...otoAlbum16.html

 

MK-V had sent me the incorrect cable routing bracket at the time, so I was rather stumped with that at first - not to mention fighting cables and binding! We got it sorted though, even though it sucked being in the hot seat on a "BIG" job, a world debut for the AR rolling film on principal photography on an $80 million budget, and having to pretend everthing was "just fine".

 

And finally, with I suspect the trickiest scenario, where did you put the MDR on the XL? There isn't enough room above the camera and there isn't enough room on the Motor side (cam right). Due to the Mitchell movement of Panavision, there is a long list of why Panavision is so awkward in the AR. (eg. the LightWeight doesn't work) Namely that the Lens and magazine are radically to the left of center, with the bulk of the motor side and video tap taking up the space on the right side of the cage - a nightmare for re-balancing. As I don't have to deal with this currently by using the zoom - what was your experience with lens changes? Have to put up the 50mm?

 

I'm assuming by 'Hytron' you mean Hytron 50, and 'Big Brick' you mean a Hytron 120 or Pro Pack? Just trying to get a better sense of how much bottom weight we are talking about here and therefore the sort of sled length you mean. You went with less bottom weight with a heavier camera, but in order to get an acceptable gimbal clearance and low mode height, you had to go with a longer post?

 

I have found with the AR that by going with less bottom weight the sled length has to grow exponentially to achieve the same 'Gimbal to lens center' distance in order to 1) make the mode switches and 2) to have any kind of low mode - otherwise we are talking about only getting to the hi end of lo mode. Aside from the fact that I wouldn't mount the MDR on the camera for obvious reasons in normal Steadicam mode, this is one of several reasons I find I have to mount the MDR as far as possible away from the Camera, and still keep things as symmetrically balanced as possible.

 

Don't worry about getting those pics in to the website. That page has come and gone and we await a new page with an exclusive listing of AR Operators. The difference should be "stunning".

 

Thanks for taking time out Buzz. Hopefully we can talk once I am back from Morocco.

 

Will

[John Buzz Moyer]

Will...that's alot of info...we can talk it out when you get back...

 

Good Luck in Morocco...

 

John "Buzz" Moyer

[RobVanGelder]

I hope you will share your experiences here too.

 

I am very interested in all things mentioned here, this is the first time real interesting info, experiences and difficulties surface about all the Hype-talk and sales-promotion.

 

Please continue, you are really the "front-soldiers" here and we will all learn from you!

 

Best,

Rob

[WillArnot]

Buzz,

 

For the benefit of others I can simplify now that I've given the above details.

 

1) Position of mounting MDR on the 3 different cameras we have both flown in the AR and it's ramifications on balancing and lens changes?

 

2) Any basic info on your sled length, sled weight, battery weight, gimbal to lens distance?

 

3) What is your set up time like with a new camera in the AR vs. if you just had to build in normal Steadicam mode?

 

4) Any cable issues? Who made up the longer cables you need for the AR?

My BNC is 5ft long and the camera power is 40" long in order to get it to the appropriate place on the camera.

 

On that subject I am glad I have 2B 303 connectors on my XCS sled for camera power in order to have proper delivery of power and no voltage loss due to too small connectors and wire guage. A potential problem once you start building power cables long enough for the AR.

 

5) Which sled do you use? Any pics?

 

Thanks for getting involved here. Great info that otherwise wouldn't be aired as there is no other way currently. And a great way for people to learn what makes the AR work and to continue it's quest for greatness.

 

Cheers,

Will

 

PS- As I re-read these and any posts I make, I wonder if I am harping on needless details regarding the MDR. My response to myself (!) is that it is less of an issue with for example plastic video cameras with a zoom lens. However this brings me back to my initial response to Chris, whereby issues become rapidly magnified once we are talking about changing film mags and heavy 35mm lenses that don't all weigh the same. The 'Domino Effect' is significant. The ability to coarse adjust either the position of the camera in the rings or the position of the whole AR cage on the sled comes heavily into play. The less "stuff" that is attached to the camera inside the rings, I find simplifies my life a great deal in this regard.

 

--Do we need to have better plate adjustment for 35mm cameras? My feeling is yes. eg. a longer AR cage plate to coarse adjust on the sled; and the ability to slide the camera fore & aft in the rings further than the rings. Again this isn't so much an issue if you fly lightweight plastic video cameras with one lens all day.

 

--Currently I have had rigidity issues where vibrations are visible once I am tighter than a 27mm. Howard and Rebecca are working on this for me.

 

--When did you get your AR?

 

PPS - where do you put your transmitter? If on top of cage it ends up pointing at the ground if you switch to low mode. Or is this another thing you cram into the cage with the camera? I have various options I employ based on the shot or the camera.

[Ramon Engle]

 

Here's a cool little bracket that puts the Preston MDR in line with the chasis on the Varicam. It's a delrin plate that clicks into the AB battery bracket and the MDR dovetails right into the delrin bracket. All though it does extend the mass of the camera it reduces the nasty cable nest. I power the MDR from an Accessory box on the camera.

We fly with too many cables

Hardwire BNC to video village

BNC to sled

Remote Box(for on the fly painting and adjustments)

Camera Power

 

You have to remove the handle of the camera to fit the camera in the cage. I had aluminum port caps made to cover the exposed handle mounts. You should protect these areas as dirt and dust can enter the body cavity of the camera and cause havoc.

 

The camera package includes: Canon Cine style zoom lens, MDR, 3 preston motors, AJA downconverter

wireless mic receiver, Panel lite, Accessory J-box.

I fly the Canatrans on the bottom with two Dionic 90's and 1 Hytron 140.

 

It's a beast of a package at about 88lbs total.

I've been flying the V2 for the last month and it's been working perfectly. The prior unit, the V1 was sketchy at best, lots of drift. But the V2 seems to have resolved the drift issue.

 

Will Arnot fly's with his MDR mounted on the bottom of his AR. I'm working on a multicore cable from Mogami

that will allow one cable(half inch in diameter) and very flexible, to provide the Camera connector and 3 lens motor connectors to the camera with the MDR mounted on the bottom. Should be interesting.

 

Just wanted to share.

Ramon

[John Buzz Moyer]

Will,

 

 

I can say quickly that the XL was stuck in there and the MDR was velcroed on...plus the cinetape and motors in about 10 minutes...that was the first time we ever had the that camera in there. To be honest, I didn't take the belt off and do the "real" trim ever... It just worked perfectly anyway. I guess if something wasn't working I would have taken the time to balance the CG and the side to side in the AR cage more precisely, but it wasn't an issue. The hardest part was getting the cables to a nodal point off the back of the mag. I used some old 1/2 inch focus rods and a dog bone to make it work. I used the throat extension to get the camera more forward for the lens motors to have plenty of clearance. Like I said before, it worked flawlessly. The MDR was on the door side (Brian my good buddy and first assistant didn't mind at all for reloads) and the motor side was right up against the ring on the other side. We powered the Fiz off the camera.

 

The modulus is stuck on the bottom of the rig...I haven't seen any problem with interference yet with a low to high mode transition.

 

Cables are whatever Howard gives standard with the system and have worked with the 235, LT, and XL.

 

I've had the nexus system for a year and a half now and got the AR in April. I used Mike O'Shea's AR system on a job last february and he was quite a help in getting me on track. Howard and Chris spent time with me at Universal with some pointers as well...it was nice to do some shots that those guys admittedly were impressed with...

 

I'll get to the other particulars hopefully this weekend for you...I don't have specifics of measurements but I think I can forward some pictures when I get home for next weekend...

 

JBM

[WillArnot]

Buzz,

 

10 minutes! WOW! That is fast. Do you mean from scratch or is the sled & AR already built and configured?

 

Were you on the same lens all day? Primos I assume with the XL?

How many Preston motors - DM1 or DM2? and on which side of the lens?

Wondering if lens changes were also as speedy for you?

 

And without really checking the 'Without Belt Balance' (WBB) it sounds like your AR is performing extremely well, or you just got very lucky with the placement of your accesories.

 

Howard, have any alterations been made to the strength of the motors?

 

To those who are lost on terms like "WBB": when the camera is fully built in the AR cage, it is necessary to then balance the mass within the circle. To get an accurate feel for this it is necessary to remove the belt that drives the ring - a simple process. You can then see quickly whether the camera needs to go left-right or up-down inside the rings so that the rings don't have to labour at any point. This is the same principle as any 3 axis head you might get on a crane arm. The camera mass has to be neutrally balanced in order for the mechanics to be accurate. Removing the belt is also a bit like putting your gimbal to neutral when balancing your sled - you see very quickly where adjustments must be made to achieve static balance. A good thing to do to achieve greater touch and accuracy.

 

Buzz & all, I don't mean to be-labour apparently small details, but if Buzz has hit upon a set up that is this quick and productive it will be a great thing, as the Panavision XL is inherently tricky to balance inside a 10" diameter circle (dimension of the AR cage) due to it's geometrically un-symmetrical shape.

 

For example, if using a long throat adaptor is better than the custom shorty I had made, since this gets the lens fwd in order to clear lens motors. The question then is: is there enough plate travel before it hits the front of the rings, as currently there is only one position to mount the camera to the AR side to side plate in the cage. And then, can you bring the whole AR cage back far enough on your top stage to get the whole CG back over or just behind the center post for good sled balance. I ask b/c the plate on the bottom of the cage is rather short and therefore limits how far fore/aft it can be moved. I will be bringing this up with Howard when I see him in LA soon.

 

This is why I ask how many motors and on which side of the lens, as everything has a 'domino affect' on balancing the mass in the cage. This is also why lens changes are a pertinent question as the delicate balance in the cage can be significantly altered in the process, especially where Panavision Primos are concerned. The 50mm weighs about 8 lbs and the 21mm is about 3 lbs.

 

Look fwd to those pics and lets try and talk this weekend Buzz when you have a moment.

917 417 4701

 

Will

[Erwin Landau]

Hey Will,

 

The weight for the Preston MDR-2 is an even 2 lbs.

 

To the rest of the topic... I will right now not comment.

 

 

Try to keep it Level... especially with the AR...

 

 

Erwin