tool-free gimbal

[Charles King]

Thanks Jason. I appreciate it. :)

[Alec Jarnagin SOC]

What a great conversation.

 

George Paddock/ Chris H are absolutely right about moving the clamp away from the gimbal, but I think Rob and Will have excellent points. When I was last in the market for a gimbal in 2001, I was looking at Brant Fagan's (which wasn't ready yet so I dismissed that one), PRO's, and XCS's. I very much wanted a tooless gimbal, but was also very concerned about the clamping mechanism being too far from the bearings. I should add that at the time I was using a 1.5" PRO post and that PRO had not introduced the new tooless version of their fine gimbal. I put my concerns right out in the open when talking to Greg Bubb (XCS) and his response was akin to Rob's. He assured me that his gimbal sleeve was very rigid and tight to the post so no flexing of the post could take place between the clamp and the bearings. In typical Greg fashion, he offered to send me a gimbal to try (a brand new one because he didn't have any demos outfitted for a 1.5" post). If I liked it, I could buy it - otherwise I'd send it back and it would become his demo/sample unit. No push; no sales pitches, etc. Upon receiving it, I put it through its paces along with Brant Fagan's PRO gimbal as well as an early prototype of Brant's gimbal. All three were excellent, but in the end, the XSC won out for me. I loved the ergo-handle as well as the feel of it. It spun flat - it simply worked.

 

So I used it on set for a couple of weeks and then called Greg to tell him I'd take it. In conversation it came up that I hadn't had the chance to fly it with anything stupid heavy, but such was life (I figured I ought to pay the man). He told me to keep my money and hold on to the gimbal until I tried every camera that I wanted to! I also mentioned in passing that I wished the hand grip was thicker (again on a 1.5" post). A year or so later (I'd obviously gone ahead and made the purchase), Greg calls me and asks how I want the new sleeve for my gimbal sent. When I ask what he is talking about, he tells me that he made a run of new 1.5" sleeves and as per my suggestion made the grip thicker and he wanted to swap it for no charge! I only ended up using the second version of the 1.5" hand grip for less that a year because I (along with others) was finally able to convince Greg to offer his 2" post with PRO mounts so I upgraded to his post changing the gimbal sleeve in the process.

 

I bring a lot of this up because I've had the opportunity to try the XCS gimbal on both an aluminum post as well as a carbon fiber post. When I read Will's comment about his suspicions of the removed clamp being less problematic on carbon fiber posts, I nodded to myself in agreement and then realized I had used the XCS gimbal with great success on an aluminum post. My aluminum post was in excellent condition (a year old maybe? I had been using a 3a gimbal prior to this) when I did the original tests though. I know that the first version of the XCS 1.5" sleeve was very similar to Greg's 2" design in that the sleeve was almost on the post for its entire length. When he went to the second version, I seem to recall he had several bands doing this but to eliminate some weight (because it was a thicker grip) he had bands with air gaps as well. I may be mistaken on this one, but I never noticed any difference in performance, but again I switched to the 2" version fairly soon afterwards (and I never did any formal testing). Lastly, this second version still had enough metal that it was very rigid.

 

As for the 2" design, I still love this gimbal. Nuff said.

 

One last note, I was very impressed with the Ultra 2 gimbal in the limited time I spent with it at two different trade shows. Seems like they really did a great job.

[Dan Coplan]

I'm very interested in hearing people's comparisons between various gimbals, namely Greg Bubb's and PRO's VZ. A month on a feature and no wife and kids = new gimbal for Dan!

 

Dan

[Eric Fletcher S.O.C.]

I'm very interested in hearing people's comparisons between various gimbals, namely Greg Bubb's and PRO's VZ. A month on a feature and no wife and kids = new gimbal for Dan!

 

Dan

 

 

Well the choices are simple

 

1.5" Post: VZ or XCS

 

1.58" Post: Tiffen Ultimate or XCS

 

2" Post: XCS

 

Can't go wrong with those three.

 

Now there will be some noise from across the pond but honestly I'd be shopping where I can get service "Right Now" and for those of us here in the land of LA, I'd be shopping local.

[JobScholtze]

Well the choices are simple

 

1.5" Post: VZ or XCS

 

1.58" Post: Tiffen Ultimate or XCS

 

2" Post: XCS

 

Can't go wrong with those three.

 

Now there will be some noise from across the pond but honestly I'd be shopping where I can get service "Right Now" and for those of us here in the land of LA, I'd be shopping local.

 

Thank god there are more choices out there. So this advice is rubbish, but most of you already know that.

Like rob said, it would be better to say its your opinion.

 

 

 

Dan, I can higly reccomend the V2 from howard. There service has been top notch. The do whatever the can to make you happy. I am sure XCS, PRO and TIFFEN do the same, even Glidecam has top service. So there are many more choices, dont be affraid for the costumer service. Every good compagny has it. The v2 is amazing. It spins forever, no friction at all and just 110% quality. In fact i love his 2 inch post too. My operating improved so much with this sled. I fly it with the G50 and its a dream. I wish you could try it, than you know.

 

Good luck mate

[Jason Williams]

I think that this thread has gone slightly off topic ... but just to add my opinion - Chris those of us who subscribed did see your post before it had been deleted, and I totally agree.

 

I think that Mr Fletcher should stand down as Moderator - he clearly has a "dislike" for MK-V and I feel this is unfair to the whole Steadicam (not brand!!) community - this does not reflect well for an "un-biased" forum.

 

Just my personal take on this .... delete this post or ban me, I don't care either way.

 

Any way back on topic .....

 

I would highly recommend the MK-V V2 gimbal as it's the smoothest I've ever tried and for a quicker simliar alternative the gimbal upgrade rocks - and I have found no problems with mine, it has been 100% since day 1.

 

HTH

 

Jason

[WillArnot]

Gentlemen,

 

I really didn't want to touch this one. I do business w/ MK-V and consider them friends, as I do the folks at XCS, GPI and Tiffen. I won't get into this he said - she said malarky and simply can't as I don't have experience with the MK-V gimbal.

 

Alec had a fantastic post in a very ineresting discussion and I would just like to see it get back to pure assessment and technical details.

 

In the interest of an un-biased assessment, I would love to hear from our friends who love their MK-V gimbals. In the interest of diffusing this discussion, I would like to know what experience you have all had with the XCS, GPI VZ, and New Ultra 2 Tiffen gimbals?

 

This would be much more productive and interesting, and sound less like you are just sticking up for your mates at MK-V.

 

Thanks,

 

Will

[Jerry Holway]

Alec had a fantastic post in a very ineresting discussion and I would just like to see it get back to pure assessment and technical details.

 

In the interest of an un-biased assessment, I would love to hear from our friends who love their MK-V gimbals. In the interest of diffusing this discussion, I would like to know what experience you have all had with the XCS, GPI VZ, and New Ultra 2 Tiffen gimbals?

Thanks,

 

Will

 

Great idea.

 

A couple of thoughts: if the gimbal is relatively tight to the post near the pan bearing, then clamping close to the pan bearing doesn't matter very much, if at all. Clamping further from the gimbal, having a long sleeve, or a tight slip fit far from the gimbal but clamped at the gimbal (all assuming a rigid gimbal housing) will hold the post better than a vertically small clamp next to to the pan bearing.

 

Clamping well close the the pan bearing can (if poorly designed, not like the PRO), may do more harm by distorting the metal holding the bearing, causing binding and mis-alignment. Older gimbals like the Model III, without the long sleeve, also put more stress on the clamp - a gimbal with an integra housing holds the post at two points, thus reducing the local forces on the post enormously, and better maintianing post-to gimbal rigidity.

 

Concentricity of post to gimbal is relatively unimportant, and must be, as older posts were often .005 or more inches out of round... and a gimbal that sloppy is junk. I urge anyone with a metal post to take out their calipers....

 

Older aluminum posts were often quite out of round and got worse with excessive clamping, and this meant the slop near the bearing had to be larger so the gimbal would slide, and a clamp nearer the bearing was probably a good idea. With the introduction of carbon fiber posts, this is much less of an issue, as tolerances can be tighter and the posts stay round.

 

More important to gimbal functioning is how good the bearings are and how well the various axes of the bearings relate to each other ? whether they flex or shift ? and all the modern, high end gimbals (MK-V, Tiffen Ultra and Ultra2, PRO, Ultimate, Acme ? and probaly others, nothing is implied in the list or its order) work marvelously well, regardless of the clamp location.

 

Jerry

[JobScholtze]

Sure will,

 

 

First i like to say i am a costumer, not a friend of mk-v. just like there stuff. I spend a long time figure out my needs. I spend about an hour with Garret and Jerry, trying out the new ultra sled. An hour with sachtler. A few hours with bear bell and also a few hours with mk-v. I have worked with an pro for a few days. The xcs i never tryd. I did like all the sleds, one way or the other. The all had there pro's and cons. I loved the ultra but i wanted it more modulair. And in my opinion the sled is a bit longer than i wanted. And i have the feeling i can swap around more than with the ultra. It took almost a year to visit mk-v and the spend the entyre day with me. i tryd everything there. No pressure, no salestalk, only advice. It was my own desicion. I always like to try out myself. I am in this game for 9 years now, and a so called selfmade man. Meaning, i do my own desicions. for ME, this was the choice. From here i can grow and grow. Feeling big differences between a pro and a V2?. I cant tell you. The pro was 1.5 and this is 2 inch, so the feeling is different. Better than the ultra? Cant say that eighter, its a different gimbal bit it felt really good. I loved there sled and i loved there motor topstage. And loved there gimbal, there is nothing wrong with it. And there is noting wrong with the mk-v nor the pro or xcs. its just to childish to say mine is better than yours. It has all to do with your personell feelings. My experience after 4 weeks intensive use is that it improved my operating and that i am very happy with it. It just pisses me of when people bashing around, without being, wel you know, Nuff said

[Charles King]

Well detailed Jerry. I learned alot from that post. Thank you for it. :) Job, nicely put. I agree. :)

[Charles Papert]

I'll throw in another voice regarding the MK-V gimbal upgrade for the PRO; I've pointed a number of people toward it who liked the idea of going tool-less with their PRO gimbals for only $500 and as far as I know everyone who bought one liked it. It's entirely possible that the tolerance issues described here (between the aluminum/carbon post and the clamping distance) do make a difference--the question is how much and is that percentage swallowed up in other factors. I do know that I can get the gimbal to spin flat; yet I also know that some days the rig "feels" better than others. But don't we all experience that? Those dreaded gremlins...

 

If one is prepared to spend $5K and up on a new gimbal, then it obviously behooves one to try them all out and make a decision based on performance (and if you happen to live driving distance from a given manufacturer, that's often a personally relevant factor as well, but that's only a certain percentage of operators). If one has a PRO gimbal and wants to go tool-free for $500, the MK-V upgrade is worth trying, and the nice thing is that you can pop it on and off the gimbal on your rig to see if you can feel/see the difference.

 

The ONLY thing that counts is performance, not theory--is your operating satisfactory to you with a given setup? Could it be improved with another brand of gimbal; by what percentage, and is that worth the hit in the wallet to you (it's not like 90% of the people we work for will know the difference...) The advantage in time and effort that I realized by going tool-less with the PRO gimbal was such a wonderful change from the hex wrench dance (and I had almost forgotten that the handgrip required separate adjustment as well!) was well worth the POTENTIAL minute reduction in accuracy which was virtually impossible to note anyway. Actually, before the upgrade I would often do small adjustments in top/bottom balance by extending the post a titch (that particular hex screw I long replaced with a kip handle) which probably did more damage to the performance of the rig by affecting the dynamic balance etc.

 

Finally--Brant's ACME gimbal has been mentioned a couple of times in this thread, and I'll put this out there--sure would like to see one, are there any ops out there who have one and can report their reasons for the choice, review their results etc.? Brant, I ain't gonna tell you how to do your business but historically the best way to get this sort of thing moving is to via word of mouth, that's what this forum is great for. Send one or two out to the "coast", I know a few people (myself included) have offered over the years to sniff it out.

[Eric Fletcher S.O.C.]

I think people are missing my point, Buy what works for you and what you can get serviced in a time frame that works for you.

 

For me working on Series I need to know that I have service solutions that are fast. That's why I shop locally

[Lawrence Karman]

[

And anything is better than the old CP gimbals. Larry how does that MK-V upgrade work on the older PRO gimbal. Does it still activate a clamp at the gimbal? Or does it just clamp down at the bottom of the handle?

 

What kind of center post do you have?

 

My gut feeling is that there will be less discrepancies in diameter with a Carbon Fiber post than there will with an Aluminium post.

 

Anyone? Anyone?

 

Will

 

 

Will, I have the latest PRO center post.I used this Mark V tools free on my older PRO post as well and couldn't feel any play with either. Sliding the gimbal up and down feels good and tight. And as Charles has said it is such a pleasure not having to deal with the separate sleeve. One thing I have found is that I can get my fingers closer to the actual bearing because of the shape of the sleeve at the top just under the bearing. It's a flater shape, not as rounded as the original PRO gimbal base. I feel like I have better control of the rig, closer to the actual center, and can operate better than I did with the original. And even if the bearing shifted one or 2 thousands because it is not being tightened at the center of the bearing (and I am not saying it is), but a few inches below, I doubt I would see the difference. I certainly can't feel it if it is doing it. I have more trouble with the donkey box 3 getting play in the fore and aft axis. Often needs adjustment with the special tool.

[Stephen Murphy]

I have more trouble with the donkey box 3 getting play in the fore and aft axis. Often needs adjustment with the special tool.

 

Ive been using the V2 for the past couple of years on a 2inch post and its performed flawlessly for me. Before that i had bought and used the MK-V conversion for my 3A gimbal and it too worked superbly. I can only compare the V2 to the Pro and Ultra gimbals, and for me the difference was noticable. I have never played with the XCS gimbal, but id sure love to try it out as im a big fan of Gregs Service (it reaches as far as Ireland!) and his PDL has been working wonders for me for the last few years as well. Eric has a fair point regarding back up service though and perhaps that is why MK-V (being based in the uk) is a less attractive option for US operators, and more attractive for European ops? Although in this day and age with fedex, ups etc surely a company's location is less of an issue?

L Karman - how often are you adjusting you're Dbox3?

Apart from loosing one of the fore/aft adjustment knobs -and paying a small fortune to replace it thanks fedex:(- i havent needed to adjust mine - is anyone else having problems with this?

[Philip J. Martinez SOC]

Hi JobScholtze,

 

What did you think of the Artemis Gimbal? I have one, like it, but have not tried others, just wondering how it holds up to the others?

 

 

Thank You,

 

Philip