PRO versus G70

[David George Ellis]

Jerry,

 

I have no question about its performance. What I'd like to know more about is its ruggedness/longevity. How will the arm handle after enduring harsh conditions, i.e. sand, snow, salt, dirt, fake/real blood (it's happened). I wear my gators when I shoot in hellish situations as well, but there are times when an AC drops your arm and then decides to drag it out of the desert dirt without an apology. So much for the gators... 12 water bottles later and WTF? More sand...

 

I have a few curiosities. Such as;

 

-How do you approach cleaning/maintaining the arm thoroughly/periodically?

 

-I've been warned about handling titanium. Are the springs titanium? Machine-forged or die-cast? Does that matter? Are they delicate to the touch in regards to being accidentally scratched?

 

-Would it be better to use a steel or titanium socket?

 

-And what about all the other moving/exposed parts? Do they need the "kid glove" treatment?

 

-In the event of worst case scenario, what would be the estimated turn-around time for diagnostics/repairs after the house receives the unit given the premise replacement parts are in-house?

 

-For parts not in-house, how long can we expect for the house to receive them?

 

-Can these parts be available to us a la carte?

 

-What parts would be in need of periodic replacement?

 

-How far disassembled can be done by us laymen at home w/out sending it out? Can we repalce the springs/knobs, etc. at home/in the field?

 

-What can/can't/should we use as far as penetrants/lubricators/oils/grease?

 

-Have you answered these questions somewhere else?

 

I've had my Master arm overhauled once in the year and a half since owning it, and don't intend to do that again 'till I sell it. In the meantime, it would be nice to know more and more about the G70 as it develops in the field. Thanks in advance.

[Jerry Holway]

David-

 

Some of the questions I feel I can answer well, others are for Tiffen.

 

I assembled, disassembled, and re-assembled several of the prototype arms myself, both G-50's and 70's, as part of the testing, and it's real easy to do. Removing the springs is done with a socket wrench, or with a screw gun fitted with a socket, and that goes really fast -about two seconds. An allen wrench gets the trunions. But I suspect blowing it out with nitrogen or dry air would do for most cleaning issues.

 

I think it would fare no better or worse if dragged in the dirt than other arms. Same for sand, salt, etc. Keep that stuff out of the arm, and if it gets in accidentally, take things apart and clean and lube. Because there are no pulleys, cables, etc., there's a lot less to go wrong, easier to get apart, etc. If it were to go completely under salt water (oops!) I'd spray it all with fresh water (or dunk it), especially the springs, dry it as best I could, take it apart, blow air all over it, lubricate, etc. and probably send it back to the factory unassembled for them to evaluate. Unless I had another shot to do...

 

Get the steel socket block if you have a back mounted vest, regardless of the arm you are using. It may be the only way you can get the G-70 arm right now anyway... must check with Tiffen.

 

A lot of noise about titanium springs on the forum a while back; all I know is that a titanium spring in a destruction test required grinding half way through it before it gave way (a surprise that it took so much grinding, actually)... although a large, signifcant nick would not be a good thing. I don't think the springs need kid glove treatment, just avoid jamming screwdrivers and other sharp objects into them...

 

I don't plan on doing anything special when I get my G-70 that I don't do now with my Ultra arm.. I keep it in the supplied bag inside the vest when travelling and for storage. I don't expect anything in the arm to ever wear out, including the springs, and any routine cleaning I expect to do myself.

 

I like teflon grease, teflon oils, and sprays, and ACF-50. Nothing in the arm, vest, or sled or accessories should ever see WD-40 or other penetrating oils, and I'd only use the other stuff if something started squeaking (because it was dragged in the dirt).

 

I hope this helps.

 

Jerry

[Garrett Brown]

Thanks Jerry for posting that info. I would only add that the salt, etc. in sea water are of course water soluable so several complete immersions in distilled water will remove it and leave most of the non-soluable lubricants in place. We designed the arm to be easy to take apart and all components, including the ride and spring assembies will be available a'la carte, with installation diagrams. The spring, for example, is easy to remove and install, but has to be in the correct axial and end-to-end orientation.

 

Garrett Brown

[Alec Jarnagin SOC]

Some good points here. The arm issue, like so many others, is a large part one's personal choice, but I thought I'd add a few thoughts. For ams, I've owned a 3a, a Master and then a PRO.

 

The 3a arm is what it is (actually mine was a model 2 arm that was rebuilt into a 3a after I bought it - probably had about 15K to 20K sunk into that baby; boy have times changed). It worked very well and was the only option at the time. Light weight and functional, but in retrospect not all that easy to hold in place on extreme booms (especially down).

 

The Master arm, I've always felt was was the under-appreciated arm. It got a bad reputation out of the gate because of some silly mistakes CP did to cut corners (literally, they didn't round the corners of the elbows so some of them cracked). And CP customer care was not what it should of been. On top of this, they refused to sell the arm by itself (there was no competition at the time) in a lame attempt to woo operators away from PRO. All this takes nothing away from the design of the arm though, which is excellent. Once these problems were sorted out (or any arm that has been overhauled by Robert Luna), the arm worked very well in my opinion. Much easier to boom than a 3a, etc. Loved the tooless thing.

 

Why am I talking about this in a thread dedicated to the G-70 versus the PRO? Simple, the vast majority of arm failures I've seen/heard about over the years has been a result of socket block failures (usually the rod ends). This is a part that is in all of the arms, including the PRO. In all three arms I've owned, it is also the only thing that has caused me to be down and out for the day (on my 3a - again a rebuilt 2 so it was old). This can happen to any of the arms out there. I recently got a call from an operator with a PRO arm in need because his arm went down. I was shocked because it was a PRO arm! Of course, it turned out to be a rod end in the socket block. He was using a titanium socket block and ordered a steel one to replace it (although I don't think the rod ends are titanium - are they?). So basically, any arm can go down; as Greg Bubb says "all equipment breaks eventually when used."

 

Now, more on the PRO arm. I love mine. Since buying it, I really don't worry about it. I use rain/dust covers less often than with my previous arms, but I still use them on occasion. I thought I'd be bummed out to loose those sexy little red adjustment knobs the Master arm has, but I was surprised at how little I missed them. The four arm canisters in the PRO don't need to be even so adjustments are made as I walk to one wearing the rig by adjusting two springs (one in each section of the arm). Yes, I need a tool, but it is very easy to do. I find myself adjusting the arm a lot less than my Master arm though as it seems to be a lot more forgiving in terms of how it is tuned. The Master arm tends to lock up if not tweaked perfectly where as the RPO arm is a trooper and just shleps along. I like being able to adjust the arm when it is NOT under load too. If you go from a 535B to an SR3 you can ease the tension before you don the rig. With the Master, I'd have to stand there pushing the arm down in order to dial the knobs. Same is true when going from light cameras to heavy cameras, but holding the arm up never annoyed me as much.

 

Will's point about buying eight springs is a good one. Not only do they dramatically increase the weight range of the arm, they serve as back up. Back up equals peace of mind. [speaking of back up - a shameless plug for Will's Master arm that he is selling; rebuilt by Robert Luna and much cheaper than a new arm]. David mentioned dragging an arm through dirt. I don't think I'd chose this option as a good way for an AC to transport my PRO either. While the PRO arm comes apart in moments and the chassis can be hosed down, the spring canisters could fill with dirt holding it captive (this holds true with salt water too). The canisters are self contained making them fairly dust/water resistant (as well as replaceable in moments) but they can not be sealed because you still need to adjust the spring contained within them. This hole could allow them to be filled up with foreign undesirables. To clean the canisters, one is supposed to send them to GPI, but with the proper tool they can be opened easily yourself. This can void the warranty though so call George first (I think he mostly wants to know who is going in there and why so he can give you the proper warnings). Inside the canisters you'll find a titanium spring like any other arm except it is compressed. Don't nick em!

 

G-70. Tried it. Love it. First arm I've used since buying my PRO where I didn't instantly notice a difference in performace. Not in a market for an arm though. I love my PRO arm too much to part with it. Wouldn't overly worry about the G-70's durability for the all reasons mentioned above. Countless ops have survived countless shots with less reliable spring and pulley systems. The G-70 sheds a lot of these parts and is a very simple arm with great features. When people ask me what I'd recommend, I say I will always recommend a PRO arm because I love it so much, but I would never NOT recommend a G-70 because it is fabulous. So that brings me to, try them both and decide......

[JobScholtze]

I went with the G 70, just recieved the arm. Need to change the arm post becose its not 5/8 inch. Didnt know that, but that will be solved. Very nice arm, Very nice. Thx for the advice all

[nealnorton]

Big Thank You to Tiffen and specifically Peter Abraham who made a G70 arm available to me in order to try it out right along side my PRO Arm. Peter sent along his personal arm posts to adapt to my PRO sled.

 

I am prepping a movie and am working with a Pro Sled and a Panavision XL Camera with Primo lenses.

 

The G70 arrived last Friday and I gave the instructions a quick look and then put it right to work. I spent quite a bit of time adjusting the "Iso elastic" adjust on the arm. This is something new for me so it was quite fun seeing how much resistance I wanted to dial into the arm. Really pretty neat having the rig stay right where I put it in the boom range. I can see a real value in using this feature dependant on the type of work at hand.

 

I guess no surprise but when the G70 was adjusted to where I liked it best, it was very similar to the PRO. After quite a few years with the PRO arm I am pretty used to that feel.

 

I had an assistant measure the arm range with both the PRO arm and the G70 and the range was exactly the same. The PRO would range very slightly higher and the G70 would go slightly lower. Even though it is really marginal I would have to give the nod to the G70 here because it is easier to go higher rather than lower.

 

The G70 is a great product and it is at a great price point. Well done guys.

 

Kind regards,

 

Neal Norton

[WillArnot]

Hey Congrats Job. And thanks for the post Neal. Peter is a super helpful gent, we had a great talk the other day. He told me how he was trying to work out getting that arm to you. Sounds like it came through. I look fwd to hearing more.

[nealnorton]

After reading Jerrys post about the arm boom range, I thought it would make sense to re-measure the PRO arm boom range - The G70 was already shipped back. Well, I found a mistake in the way I measured the range on the arms. . . I re-measured with the arm hard mounted on a garfield mount and discovered that the boom range is shortened by a small but significant amount. In fact, I came up with 26 inches on the PRO arm hard mounted which is 4 inches less than the numbers I had while body mounted. I forgot to take into account the attitude of the operator when booming up and down.

 

Because of my error, I would have to defer to Jerrys numbers in measuring the arm boom ranges.

 

Sorry about the mis-information.

 

Neal

[Charles Papert]

I forgot to take into account the attitude of the operator when booming up and down.

 

An important lesson for all: demonstrate a positive attitude and you'll get more out of your gear!

 

Thanks for the report, Neal.

[Amando Crespo]

I´d like to speak about the sensations with this two goods arms. I tryed and worked with a Pro arm for about 3-4 moths, an now I´ve an Ultra2 with his G-70 arm.

For comfortability, two are fines choices, but for utility I think that the G-70 is better. I can, every shot I do, change with moore precission his scales of load and isolastic reponse whitout springs, cannisters or tools. This offers to me a best sensation of control. Any way... The question is hard, cause they are very good arms, but the sense of the G-70 is beterr for me.

Thanks

[JobScholtze]

Well, i used the G70 on 3 jobs now. At first, i was nervous becose the G70 is bigger and a little heavier than the G50. But after spend 5 minuts with that arm it feld like always. Light, smooth and very easy to handle.

Cristian made me a nice armpost for 5/8 and all is great. Still some squeeking sound in the first section, but i think there is a post about that. Need to find that post, o well, back to the search section

[Robert Starling SOC]

Still some squeeking sound in the first section, but i think there is a post about that. Need to find that post, o well, back to the search section

 

Hi Job, Here's a link to the original posting on the squeeking along with diagrams and the fix.

 

http://www.steadicamforum.com/forums/index...?showtopic=4482

[JobScholtze]

Thx, your the search master ;)

[Dan Coplan]

Very recently I had the opportunity to fly both the PRO arm and G70. I currently use a Silver Spring (which I'm very happy with).

 

Both arms are very smooth and easy to manipulate up and down. I tried the PRO first. My impressions, for whatever reasons, were that the PRO arm was the best out there and I almost didn't bother testing the G70 but you never truly know until you experience things for yourself, nevermind what other people say, so I got a demo G70.

 

I actually like the G70 better. No canisters to swap out, lighter, very easy to adjust tension with finger knobs with the additional "ride" adjustment, less expensive, but most importantly, it just felt better to *me*. "Me" being the key word as every piece of gear will feel different to each person.

 

It's bulkier than my current arm but smoother. The question for me now is, is it worth an additional $8,000 (assuming I could sell my arm for close to what I paid for it). Don't know. I've gotten used to my arm, really like it, and it's based on arms that have worked on hundreds of successful films.

 

My best advice is do whatever you can to try these arms, preferably in actual shooting conditions, for yourself. That's really the only way you'll know your preference.

 

Dan

[Jens Piotrowski SOC]

Prices:

 

Tiffen G70 $17400,-

 

VS

 

PRO arm 2 light (blue) & 2 heavy (black) $19,000

(for load capacities from 39-63 lbs) (that's what you use 90% of the time)

 

PRO Arm including 8 Spring Canisters:

4 light & 4 heavy

(for load capacities from 13-72 lbs) $22,000

PRO Arm including 6 Spring Canisters:

4 light & 2 heavy

(for load capacities from 13-63 lbs) $20,000

PRO Arm including 4 Spring Canisters:

 

not enough of a difference to make a decision based on the price. go for what you like best and where you expect the best costumer service in the future.

 

Downtime is very expensive and adds up quickly. my 2 Cents.....

 

 

 

 

Very recently I had the opportunity to fly both the PRO arm and G70. I currently use a Silver Spring (which I'm very happy with).

 

Both arms are very smooth and easy to manipulate up and down. I tried the PRO first. My impressions, for whatever reasons, were that the PRO arm was the best out there and I almost didn't bother testing the G70 but you never truly know until you experience things for yourself, nevermind what other people say, so I got a demo G70.

 

I actually like the G70 better. No canisters to swap out, lighter, very easy to adjust tension with finger knobs with the additional "ride" adjustment, less expensive, but most importantly, it just felt better to *me*. "Me" being the key word as every piece of gear will feel different to each person.

 

It's bulkier than my current arm but smoother. The question for me now is, is it worth an additional $8,000 (assuming I could sell my arm for close to what I paid for it). Don't know. I've gotten used to my arm, really like it, and it's based on arms that have worked on hundreds of successful films.

 

My best advice is do whatever you can to try these arms, preferably in actual shooting conditions, for yourself. That's really the only way you'll know your preference.

 

Dan