RATES!

[Philip J. Martinez SOC]

Sorry

 

Did not realize it is such a bad Idea, I do not know how to delete it but is anyone can please do

 

Again I'm sorry

 

I deleted it

[Afton Grant]

I like good, old fashioned, simple, personal communication. I know it's probably easier here in New York since the market is a bit smaller. Nonetheless, I have a handful of guys with whom I keep in touch. We'll talk on the phone or via email on a somewhat regular basis. While I am certainly not in touch with every single operator in the area, I have a reasonable idea of what is going on and how people are doing and if and when someone has a bad experience. The Six-Degrees theory does its work (pun INTENDED...shout-out to our local NYC ops!).

 

A forum like this is a great place to exchange ideas that can be helpful to all, regardless of experience or location. Posting of rates would not be an example of a universally helpful activity - potential catastrophic problems aside. Meetings are great, phone calls are great, emails aren't so bad. Personal communication is a bit slower. Your audience is smaller. But you'd be surprised at how much there is to be gained from an open flow of dialog between colleagues. I've had my fair share of education with regards to rates, but the knowledge I've gained about the operating, equipment, politics, and even non-Steadicam related topics, has proved to be far more valuable.

 

Best to all,

Afton

[Alec Jarnagin SOC]

Philip,

 

No worries - didn't mean to come across harsh at you (or anyone) - just expressing my thoughts.

 

Pretty much Afton sums it up. We should all have a very good idea of what constitutes acceptable rates and low-balling for a given type of project in a given market. This is easily figured out as we come through the ranks and talk with colleagues. If you are truly in your own private bubble market and there are no other ops around to talk to, then publicly posted rates wouldn't really apply to you anyway.

 

Be well (and expensive) everyone!

[Brad Grimmett]

I get what you're saying Alec, and it definately makes sense. I wouldn't want the rates to be public either. I was thinking more of something small and secret that only steadicam operators knew about. But it sounds like there are a bunch of people that wouldn't participate anyway, which pretty much makes it worthless.

Oh well, I guess there's nothing wrong with talking about these things and bouncing ideas around (whether good or bad).

[Kris Torch Wilson]

Brad , Dan, Whoever,

 

I know I'm in the minority here but I am absolutely not in favor of different rates for different ops. At least not in the live/ live to tape world. The rate has been set by the best and we have an obligation to hold that up. Hell, we are not in competition. The best guy AVAILABLE gets the job in our world. The call goes out to #1 first which means the budget has been set. If # 1 isn't availlable then the call goes out to #2 #3 etc. Don't be a fool and give it back to the producers. Better ops than me have covered for me on my show and have done so without reservation because they got the rate. Shoot me an email or call and I will gladly tell you what it is. You do a disservice to yourself for accepting less as well as give producers the ammo to continue to beat you up. Can you tell I'm. old and tired and my back is burning? Sorry for the lecture.

 

Kris

Torchcam@pacbell.net

(661)212-2535

[Brad Grimmett]

Brad , Dan, Whoever,

You do a disservice to yourself for accepting less as well as give producers the ammo to continue to beat you up. Can you tell I'm. old and tired and my back is burning? Sorry for the lecture.

 

Kris

Torchcam@pacbell.net

(661)212-2535

That's the whole point. No one wants to undercut someone else or themself. I don't think being old has anything to do with it. ;)

[Lawrence Karman]

Guys,

 

Listing rates on a public forum (especially here) is a VERY bad idea. If you are hell bent on this, do it on a private site that is password protected. Google brings you right to this forum and I'd hate to see this blow up in your face by a producer saying "but I just saw you did 'Brand X Generic Crapo Land TV Special' for much less than we are paying you; I want you to match this."

 

 

I'm glad you said it, Alec, because I would have if you didn't. Posting this kind of info gives the producers the knowledge of how low to set the bar and certain operators an idea of how much to undercut the competition.

[Brad Grimmett]

I'm glad you said it, Alec, because I would have if you didn't. Posting this kind of info gives the producers the knowledge of how low to set the bar and certain operators an idea of how much to undercut the competition.

Yikes! I didn't think of the undercutting operator situation. That's already a concern...I wouldn't want it to get any worse.

[Dan Coplan]

Undercutting is easy. You just say, "Tell me what you're paying and I'll beat it by X dollars." This is about empowering ops so they have ammunition to get the pay they deserve.

 

But a number of people have pointed out that this is simply not a good idea and perhaps that's true.

 

Je ne sais pas. C'est dommage.

 

Dan

[Brant S. Fagan SOC]

Gents--

 

I have always believed that your rate is a reflection of not only your skills and experience, but also mirrors you as a person. I believe that you (and I) need to show that self respect and confidence are a major component of how you set your rates.

 

Would you like to be known for working "cheap" by producers who have no care or conception about the final product but only the bottom line?

 

Cutting deals is one thing, but cutting your rate substantially hurts us all. Many who came before us worked really hard to sell this thing as a specialty item, not just another commodity like feeder cable or film stock.

 

This is far from a tradition but the essence should carry on.

 

If Steadicam operating was soooo easy, everyone could do it. While this may be true in LA (the "everyone" part) it seems far from it for the rest of the world.

 

Make a difference, stand up for yourself, be proud, and work for a rate that is fair and reasonable for your level of experience and equipment.

 

But don't go posting it here!

 

This is a discussion space, not a resource for producers looking to rip our hearts out over money.

 

Your rate is your business, between you and your clients, whomever they may be.

 

Best,

 

Brant S. Fagan, SOC

Steadicam/Camera Operator

[Michael Stumpf]

Nice post Brant.

And I whole heartedly agree.

I turned down 5 months of work yesterday on a new show because the

rate wasn't quite good enough for what i was told by the producers would be a "heavy" steadicam show.

$5-6 more an hour would of just made it acceptable and booked me on the show....they wouldn't come up...I passed.

The offered rate would of been just acceptable for a light steadicam show, but they want a LOT of steadicam for low end weekly rate and a prorated weekly rental (work only 4 days that week...your "weekly" rental is only paid at 4/5ths.

How exactly is THAT a WEEKLY rental??

By the way, that seems to be the new "trick" from the producers too. You can bet Panavision and all the other rental houses aren't buying that. Work 3, 4, or 5 days and you get the "weekly" rate. Your equipment is only used 2 days in a week, then it's prorated. We ALL need to stand up for that too.

 

Stand your ground for the good of all.

[Dan Coplan]

work only 4 days that week...your "weekly" rental is only paid at 4/5ths.

 

Can you clarify that? Does that mean you're offering them a discounted weekly rate (as opposed to a full daily rate) and they're using that discounted rate to discount it further based on how many days they use it?

 

Dan

[Michael Stumpf]

Dan,

 

What I mean is this.

A weekly rental rate is almost ALWAYS based on a 3 day work week.

Meaning, if you and the production agree to a weekly rental rate they are agreeing to pay you

X amount of dollars for your gear for the 5 day work work, but based on 3 days of "daily" rate.

Or to put it this way, they'll pay you 3 days at a "daily" rate, and you "give" them the 2 additional days for "free".

 

This is how EVERY rental house (whether it be camera, grip, electric, etc) does it.

Sometimes, they'll discount the "weekly" rate to 2 or even 2.5 "daily" rate.

 

But the premise is the same, IF you work the 3 days during the week, you get paid the complete WEEKLY rental. If you agree on a 3 day "weekly" rate and you only work 2 days that week (say they take the other 3 days off for vacation or holiday) you get paid 2/3rds the weekly rate.

 

Here's an example:

 

Say you own a telephoto lens that you usually rent for $500 per day.

On a 3 day "weekly" rate that would be $1,500 for the full week.

If you work 3 or more days in that week, you get the full $1,500

If you work 2 days, you get $1000, work 1 day you get $500

 

What they are trying to do NOW is this:

$500 per day is your daily rental on that lens.

3 day "weekly" rate is therefore $1,500...that's good for the full 5 day "week".

 

But say the week of Thanksgiving you have thursday and friday off and only work 3 days.

Well, that would still be considered a full "weekly" rate since your lens worked 3 or more days in the week.

But what they want to do now is this...take your $1,500 a week "WEEKLY" rate and divide it by the 5 days in the week and only pay you $900 for that week of Thanksgiving since you only worked 3 days that week.

And that's all they'll pay you!!

 

That is NOT a "weekly" rate then. That has become a "daily" rate of only $300 a day, instead of your

"agreed" upon $500 a day "daily" rate.

 

This is a new and growing trend with the producers.

 

Do you really think Panavision, JL Fisher, Chapman, or any other rental house agrees or gets that? NO WAY!

They say, "you have our gear for the full week, you pay the AGREED upon "WEEKLY" rate regardless if you "used" it or NOT. Otherwise you pay us a DAILY rate on the other weeks you use it for 5 days!

 

We as operators and OWNERS of gear, that we "rent" out just like every other rental house, needs to put a STOP to that cheating "weekly" rate B.S.

They either agree to the full "weekly" rate and pay it for 3 or more days worked.

Or pay us our full DAILY rate each and every day it works.

 

Sorry so long on the explanation, just wanted to be clear.

STEER CLEAR of those cheating "weekly" rental deals that aren't really "weekly" rentals, but rather

a con to lower your "daily" rental rate.

[Erwin Landau]

Why the rates thing will never work, two words:

 

"Desperate Housewives"

[Charles Papert]

???

 

I did some days on that last season and don't remember the rate as being out of line...?

 

please to explain