RATES!

[Michael Stumpf]

Charles, I did a bunch of days on the show last year too, both 1st and 2nd unit.

 

I love those guys over there, and they called me during preproduction of this season and

wanted to "book me" for this entire season on the additional unit days. I was already booked for 4 months on another show anyhow, but....

 

their rates are really low, especially for dayplayers.

They NEEDED to come up on the rate (especially being a top rated show).

But they "couldn't" and sadly I told them then I couldn't either since they were the

lowest paying show on network TV and I couldn't turn down the other work, all of which paid higher.

Sadly it's just unacceptable to pay those kinds of

dayplaying rates on a network show, and that's the simple reason why basically nobody will work on

the show. I think they ended up calling just about everybody in town...and basically everybody said no.

 

As I said, that's a shame too, because I love the executive producer and a bunch of the production and other crew members over there. They are just great, but I stand up for our rates, and just won't do the show for what they are offering for dayplayers.

 

By the way, thanks Charles for the info. the other day.

[Charles Papert]

hmm, guess I just didn't remember this, if indeed the rates were that low when I worked on it.

[Erik Brul]

hmm, guess I just didn't remember this, if indeed the rates were that low when I worked on it.

 

I hope Dan did got a fair rate, it seems he did the job..

 

Best, Erik

[RonBaldwin]

alot of times these shows try to get you for the same price as the full time steadi-op (whether A or B camera). That's why it's so hard to take days off when you are full time on a show -- in most cases production won't pay more for your replacement than they'll pay for you.

 

It seems that we all might find different rates for the same shows -- as far as I'm concerned, Heroes is okay (great crew). ER is not too hot (same rate as full time op - but fun to work on). I know the day-player rate on Grey's is good. I was sick one day on Earl and the op they finally got had issues with being paid the same as me (and he should have). Production finally relented and threw in some extra $$ but it was probably still under what was appropriate.

 

good luck out there!

 

ron b

[Dan Coplan]

Without venturing into the supposedly risky area of quoting actual rates, what's the range that's considered fair? I have no idea. I made x on one show and y on another and I have little clue where these fall in the overall scheme.

 

$0 - $500 rig rental = crappy

$501 - $700 = good enough

$701+ = solid

 

??? Just throwing out ideas.

 

$0/12 hrs. - $50/10 hrs. = crappy

 

etc...

 

Dan

[Michael Stumpf]

I keep getting calls for TV shows where they are offering like $55 an hour for Steadicam.

I ALWAYS turn these shows down, as do 98% of us in LA.

But there are a few out there (they know who they are...and so do WE...because they are the people who TAKE these shows that the rest of us turned down) who accept this rate!! And it's irritating to those of us who fight to keep the rates UP.

To top it off, these same shows pay crappy rental rates, and these same operators accept that too.

 

Seriously, this rate was just acceptable like 6-7 years ago. We got that much and more at the turn of this century.

Why are these few operators TAKING this rate??

They are driving down the rates so much it's getting ridiculous.

Some of these shows have recently been cancelled, so that takes care of that, but what do we need to do to

stop these operators from accepting this unacceptable rate these days??

 

Every year, every other IATSE position gets a raise. But our Steadicam rates don't seem to be going up correspondingly (if IATSE gets a 3% raise, so should our rate) and these low ballers who ACCEPT these rates when EVERY OTHER steadicam operator in LA has turned the job down are the reason for this.

 

So, if you are one of those operators who are taking these TV shows at this crappy (under $60 and hour) rate (and correspondingly crappy rental rate), do us all a favor, quit low balling the rest of us and turn these jobs DOWN. Thanks.

[RonBaldwin]

I agree with you Michael, but unfortunately there will always be those who will work for this -- whether it be new ops struggling for connections/rent or just plain low-ballers. $55/hr is only what, $6 or $7 over scale? That sucks. It's unfair to steadi-ops, and it's unfair to conventional ops.

[Brad Grimmett]

Michael,

I don't disagree with you, but I think if you're going to declare a certain rate too low, you should also be talking about what rates are acceptable, because I think there are some people who are unsure about this. I know that the days of steadicam ops getting $85/hr or more on TV are over for the most part (if not completely), and I know that many people are working for $60/hr regularly. So where's the sweet spot? Is it $60/hr? More? We'd all like to ask for, and receive, as much as possible, but I think that # is different for different people and different shows.

I guess I just don't see $55/hr as lowballing per se, since it's only $5/hr less than what I know is standard in many cases. I'm really not disagreeing, just playing the devil's advocate a bit. I think a big part of the issue is that there are many more steadicam ops out there than there were 6 or 7 years ago, and there are more every day. I think it's a simple matter of supply and demand in many cases.

Personally, I don't do that much network TV, except when I'm covering someone on a show, in which case the rates are already established. I know people used to get a much higher day-player rate when covering another operator, but I haven't found that to be the case lately. Should I be pushing harder on this? Most of the time the operator I'm covering tells me the rate, there is no negotiation with the producer.

This is an important issue, but it seems it's easy to discuss what is considered "wrong", but much tougher to discuss what is considered "right".

[Eric Fletcher S.O.C.]

I know that the days of steadicam ops getting $85/hr or more on TV are over for the most part (if not completely), and I know that many people are working for $60/hr regularly. So where's the sweet spot? Is it $60/hr? More? We'd all like to ask for, and receive, as much as possible, but I think that # is different for different people and different shows.

 

Brad,

 

If you fight enough those "Fat Rates" are still there.

 

What I do hate is when production calls you and starts off with the "hey we need a favor" line yet you have never worked with them. Those calls pretty much get automatic no's from me.

[Charles Papert]

The difference between dayplaying and covering someone is that usually when you are covering, you are doing that operator a favor as they are taking a day off, out sick etc. so it's not that hard to see why production wouldn't really be responsible to pony up more money for that reason. Day playing is generally budgeted seperately and thus the "normal" rates should apply...I know we don't like to post this, but the long-established [20 years??!!] going rate has been $1000/10 and $1000 for gear and yes, many shows still pay this .

 

I recently covered an injured operator at $60/hr, but outside of that I've personally decided that it's not worth it to me to go out for that rate any more and turned down several pilots that offered that without wanting to negotiate the rental to make up for it. Never say never, of course, but I'm trying to stick to it.

[Brad Grimmett]

The difference between dayplaying and covering someone is that usually when you are covering, you are doing that operator a favor as they are taking a day off, out sick etc. so it's not that hard to see why production wouldn't really be responsible to pony up more money for that reason. Day playing is generally budgeted seperately and thus the "normal" rates should apply...I know we don't like to post this, but the long-established [20 years??!!] going rate has been $1000/10 and $1000 for gear and yes, many shows still pay this .

That's a good point. I wasn't thinking about it that way. Again, I don't do that much TV.

 

I recently covered an injured operator at $60/hr, but outside of that I've personally decided that it's not worth it to me to go out for that rate any more and turned down several pilots that offered that without wanting to negotiate the rental to make up for it. Never say never, of course, but I'm trying to stick to it.

I can understand your stance on that Charles. My question would be: How many calls for pilots have you gotten where they weren't hard-headed about that rate? Are the calls still coming in where they're willing to pay more, or at least flexible with the rental, or is $60/hr with the standard weekly rental becoming a standard rate that they don't want to go above?

[Brad Grimmett]

Brad,

 

If you fight enough those "Fat Rates" are still there.

 

What I do hate is when production calls you and starts off with the "hey we need a favor" line yet you have never worked with them. Those calls pretty much get automatic no's from me.

The fat rates may still be there, but it also depends on who you are and who wants you on the job and is willing to fight for you. It's possible to fight your way right out of the job, which would be much easier for me to do than you or Charles. I just don't have near the credits you guys do, or the contacts. Of course I don't want to undercut anyone, or have it happen to me, but there is a difference between operators and I don't mind if someone who's been operating for 20+ years gets a better rate than me on the same show. They should pay for that operator's experience. I certainly don't want to sell myself short, but I'm a realist.

Unfortunately, it seems that it's not about a particular operator to many producers, it's just about the bottom line. The fact that Charles is getting lower offers than he should is a perfect example of that.

[Lawrence Karman]

Gemtlemen, I share your frustration, but I would strongly advise against discussing $ specifics on a public forum. It only gives the wrong people ideas.

[WillArnot]

Guy Bee can really be looked to for putting Steadicam firmly on the TV map. He almost single handedly saved the show and made ER into a huge money maker - and gave new incentive for producers to make new shows, since here was the answer to the time constraints of cranking out epsodic. The Steadicam Operator. The process that Guy turned everyone on to affected everything production related: production/set design, scheduling, budget, lighting / cinematography, the role of the A camera operator / Steadicam position etc.

 

This was not solely due to his operating skills, which are impeccable and highly intuitive - able to make beauty out of unrehearsed blocking. No, operating is but half the job, a good operator knows the script as well as the director, and having watched Guy at work witnessed him practically directing the show in terms of his understanding of coverage and editing. This is the realm whereby an operator becomes invaluable to a director or DP or Producer.

 

A TV director can receive $40,000 per episode and a percentage of that every time the episode replays. Guy recognized this and made for the door. He is directing succesfully and I have the utmost respect for him. However, in being the first op to really make a mark on so many levels and officialise the possibilities available to top operators, the sky was really the limit.

 

Guy took the job of pioneering the first season of "Third Watch" with the understanding that he would get to direct. He made good, and they made good, and everyone won.

 

...Except every other A-B Steadi / Cam op in TV ever since.

 

Guy made a crummy deal because he was going to get out of operating and into directing.

 

That crummy deal was $65 hr and a 3 day week guarantee on the gear @ $1000 / day. And I stress that this was for the guy who did the whole season. Day players always got a real Steadicam rate of $120 / hr for a 10 hr guarantee + $1000 / day on gear. All you snooping producers, this is a TV day rate. Feature and commercial rates are much more.

 

Shame on you who have driven that into the dirt. So many hacks and wannabees these days, it just isn't what it used to be. People are loaders on a movie and then want to operate a Steadicam. There is no appreciation for apprenticeship and learning these days. Greed is rampant, from the Producers who encourage it and the low balling hacks who oblige.

 

I yearn for the hard earned gentlemanly artistry of the old school operator - Steadicam or not. I particularly agree w/ Ron's point of $55 being barely above operator scale. This says that we really don't have anything special to offer, and therefore aren't worth paying.

 

How tragic. Sadly in our business we don't reap the benefit of "History repeating". Low ballers push the rates down and down, never to be recovered. Without a unified stand, we stand to lose everything. Open your eyes, look at the bigger picture, and have the guts to say "NO". When you are a good enough operator you will get the job, trust in this - it is the win win situation.

 

STOP this lose lose scenario whereby we are exploited by the producers who take home anywhere from $20,000 to $30,000 per episode in the first season alone.

 

The Producer of 3rd watch, Brooke Kennedy, got $30,000 per episode in the first season of Third Watch, and she abused the hell out of that crew and was the primary reason I turned down Guy's personal invitation to take over full time after I did 2 months for him just after he first stepped up. Imagine how much she got when they picked it up the 2nd season. It ran for 6 seasons. You know her take home didn't remain the same or go down. Craft service and catering never changed however.

 

There is a ton of money in TV. The crew just never see it. The blood and sweat of the Steadicam/Cam op certainly don't - it is just so wrong that it is our own and their greed who have allowed this to happen. As I see so much, if people did their homework and really knew how much others make in TV, I suspect and hope a lot less of this would happen.

 

MAKE A STAND. BE PATIENT WITH YOUR PROGRESS. YOU WILL BE SHOCKED AT HOW GOOD THE RESULTS CAN BE. And above all, DONT LOW BALL.

[David Allen Grove]

There also seems to be a few (select few) "seasoned" ops that have gone down the dark path as well for whatever reason. Too many ops accepting low pay perhaps? who knows.

 

I interviewed for a show that paid squat yet someone with almost twice my years in experience, (July 07' will be my 12th year operating steadicam) took the job and I cannot believe this person could've gotten paid any more than what was told to me. Especially if shows like Desperate Housewives and Ghost Whisperer are paying what they are paying.

 

I won't mention names here or rates... Probably shouldn't have even mentioned this on this board but ... cat's out of the bag now. MEOW

 

I was just thinking...

The Seasoned guys need to set the example and be mentors to those who are just starting out.

 

Well, maybe that is the answer? Maybe some kind of mentorship program could get started? It would benefit both the seasoned op and the new guy.