RATES!

[Michael Stumpf]

Thanks Will for your strong words and point of view, and as Bartle and Jaymes used to say, "thank you for your support."

 

I hope the low ballers open their eyes and stop taking these jobs and stop driving down the rates and making it harder on all of us to get the rates we deserve.

As David stated too, seasoned ops. especially should NOT be even considering those low ball rates.

 

By the way, conventional operator daily rate right now is almost $50 an hour.

We deserve much more than that for what we do!!

[RonBaldwin]

hey Will -- funny you mention Mr. Bee, he's directing the episode we start tomarrow on Jericho.

 

Also keep in mind that (me thinks) we are mainly talking about union shows, particularly union episodics. When you are called and told the rate is (god forbid) scale or $50 or $55 or whatever, ask what the main op is making. There's no reason you shouldn't be getting at least 25% to 35% more money for the skills you are bringing to the table. You are working much harder physically, have invested mucho $$$ as well as many years of practice to advance your steadicam skills. A fairly new op may not deliver the best footage, be able to go from high to low mode in 3 minutes or know Ted's Manual Of Style cover to cover, but I guaranty no one on the set could do as well.

 

Steadicaming a union tv show for $55/hr is bad enough (that being said, we've all got bills to pay), but working for scale is unforgivable and screws everyone. DO NOT DO IT.

 

rb

[WillArnot]

Well said Ron. Give Guy my best.

 

W

[Dave Bittner]

Please forgive me if I'm speaking out of line here, but isn't part of the problem for those of you working on union shows that your union simply refuses to represent you? Am I correct that there's no standard union rate for steadicam? Well why not? What good is being in a union that won't represent your craft and stand up for you? Particularly with the ever-increasing importance of steadicam on the set. It's no longer a novelty, it's an every-day tool.

 

Beyond that, it strikes me as a simple situation of supply and demand. The supply of operators has gone way, way up, and the level of what is considered "acceptable" operating has, if anything, gone down. (We've all seen some tragic operating on high-profile network shows, yes?) So, without union representation to protect pricing, naturally the rate is going to go down.

 

It's very easy to say, "Hey everybody, don't take those low-ball jobs!" but it's not so easy for the super-talented new guy who's got $100K in a rig, a family to feed and a reel to build. Sit home home and take calls from creditors or take the week's worth of work at $55/hour and make this month's payments.

 

But again, if your union had a tough stance on steadicam operator rates the lowballers would only be left with-nonunion shows, right? Problem solved?

[WillArnot]

Great point David. Don't get me started on the Union representation thing. My great fear in your valid suggestion is that they will do as they have continued to do for so long now and sell their members up the river. If they could secure a rate that is reasonable I would say great, but all I see is them losing ground at every negotiation... highlighted by the recent loss of mandatory operator staffing.

[Brad Grimmett]

Gemtlemen, I share your frustration, but I would strongly advise against discussing $ specifics on a public forum. It only gives the wrong people ideas.

Unfortunately, as is evidenced in many of the posts in this thread, the wrong people already have the wrong ideas! I've been operating since 2000, and I've had a lot of trouble finding out from other ops what rates were acceptable in what situations since the beginning. I feel like I've only started to scratch the surface in this regard in the last couple of years. The problem is, that public or private, people don't like to talk about rates (this has been my experience at least). I have friends on a variety of different shows (TV, features, etc.) and I don't know their rates. I'm hesitant to ask, and they're hesitant to volunteer the information. The only way I find out what other peoples rates are is if I cover them on a job, or if I hear it through the grapevine. This doesn't help anyone. I've even worked on features as "B" camera/steadi where the "A" op was unwilling to discuss his/her rate with me. Who is this helping? Certainly not the operators. I always think "Their rate must be pretty low for them to be embarrassed to talk about it". Or maybe it's so high that they're afraid to tell me?

If the union is unwilling to help us (or we're unwilling to let them) then we need to stick together. Knowledge is power in this regard. I know I've gotten less than I should have in certain situations, and I'm sure the same is true for other operators.

We're basically helping the producers when we don't discuss rates amongst ourselves. The producers know that if they can keep us in the dark they can exploit our ignorance.

So, maybe discussing rates on a public forum isn't the best idea, but at least we're discussing them somewhere!

[WillArnot]

Another really solid point Brad.

 

I for one would be more than happy to discuss any aspect of rates with you. Feel free to ask anything you like. Private is probably best of course, but I completely agree that the longer the collective 'we' are kept in the dark, the better for those who have to pay. Funny how that goes.

 

I feel grateful to have received guidance from the old guard on these matters and it has proved invaluable. We are really doing ourselves a great disservice to not talk about these things. There most certainly is power in numbers and also great power in having knowledge.

 

It is amazing what happens when the selfish acts of few are revealed.

 

Will "keep it real, & keep it open" Arnot

[Brad Grimmett]

I appreciate the offer Will, and I'm sure I'll take you up on it.

I think part of my issue with rates is that I didn't come up as an assistant, so I wasn't privy to a lot of the information that a lot of assistants probably are on their road to operating, so when I started doing steadicam I was at the bottom of the learning curve in that regard. I've certainly been very lucky to have been helped by a few great operators regarding all things steadicam, including rates, and I'm very grateful, but I'm always looking to learn more.

[Kris Torch Wilson]

Morning Brad,

 

I'm shocked that the episodic guys are getting beat up as bad as they are. Life is actually very good in the live world right now. I've emailed you our rates and am happy to share those with whover needs them. There are no secrets and no penalities for being the new guy. If you get the job you get the rate.

 

Kris

[WillArnot]

That's a great motto to live by: If you get the job you get the rate.

 

Hopefully we can stick together more on the rates. Therefore the available guy gets it, not the cheapest guy. There would be far less haggling w/ the UPM as well, which I've always hated.

 

I suck at it too. They make hundreds of deals on every job, we make just one. They are much better at it. They bluff like crazy and it's just hard to know what to do. If you know your colleagues aren't going to sell you up the river, it's way easier. You just stick to the rate. Simple.

 

Will

[Lawrence Karman]

Brad, I would be more than happy to discuss rates with people I know and maybe some I haven't met yet in private. Feel free to e-mail me. Common knowledge of where to draw the line is a good thing, but you have to be able to trust that others will do so when the time comes.

[Rob Vuona SOC]

I appreciate the offer Will, and I'm sure I'll take you up on it.

I think part of my issue with rates is that I didn't come up as an assistant, so I wasn't privy to a lot of the information that a lot of assistants probably are on their road to operating, so when I started doing steadicam I was at the bottom of the learning curve in that regard. I've certainly been very lucky to have been helped by a few great operators regarding all things steadicam, including rates, and I'm very grateful, but I'm always looking to learn more.

-------------------------------

Brad,

As Chris Wilson Stated, life in the Live-TV/Multicamera-cabled to your vest world is all good, we all know that if you get the call you get the rate and as a matter of fact I am so confidant in my fellow multicamera steadi ops that I know that they are all going to quote the exact same rate union or non-union. We all talk and know that we can back each other up and fight for the rate that we sweat for.

 

If the production company or producers are willing to accept someone for a sub par rate they are going to get sub par results and you want no part of them anyway. That being said, if there is someone you know taking rates for sub par, give then a friendly call and educate them how not to shoot themselves in the foot and detract from all of our hard work.

 

And on a side note: Why don't we have representation through the union separate from camera? Not that any minimum rate that they would negotiate would be anywhere close to what is expected from us anyhow !

 

And one more thing that hasn't been discussed, the rental rate . . . . . What should the difference be between different rigs? If someone has $100,000 in rig a gear and another has $30,000 should the rate be the same just because the job is the same?

 

 

Peace Out

Rob

[Michael Stumpf]

The newest Producer low baller thing to do....

Put the rig on a "weekly" rental rate then prorate the rental if you only shoot 4 days (ie: you have a holiday during the week and you only shoot 4 days) BUT THEN during another week

they ask you to work on a SATURDAY (6th dsy in a row) but refuse to pay you an additional rental day for your rig saying, "the 6th day is still within the same week."

 

Please by all means guys DO NOT accept that.

A "weekly" rental week is for 3-5 days work. IF you have to work a 6th day during that week, they NEED to pay you an additional day rental.

 

My current show does not want to pay me for the occasional Saturdays they ask us to work (currently every other 3rd Saturday).

I therefore will not work on those Saturdays.

 

The irony here for them is, then if Steadicam is needed on those Saturdays (I fly the rig everyday) they will have to hire someone else...pay that person a DAILY hourly rate AND a daily steadicam rental rate. LOL

Makes no sense, but they said they won't pay me an additional rental day on those Saturdays.

 

But again, if you get called for a show like this...MAKE sure you put in the deal memo that the weekly rental is for a maximum of 5 consecutive work days in any given week. 6th or 7th days are paid extra.

 

And IF you get called to come in on a show for a Saturday, please DO NOT accept the regular "weekly" operator hourly rate and the "prorated" steadicam rental rate.

Get your full daily hourly and daily rental rate!!