Job opportunity in Louisiana

[Rob Vuona SOC]

I just had to pass on a feature here in NYC that I really wanted to do because I like the DP and he asked me to do it. The Producer wanted to pay scale (tons of Steadicam too) and crappy rental too. Luckily, the DP was very understanding and so I passed, as did everybody who is anybody here in NYC. Just when I thought they might actually be coming back to me, a relatively new guy took it. Kills me. So, if you're the guy that is doing this job, please know that you are helping destroy our rate structure. Its a shame.

 

I should add that when I first told them it was not enough money, they said they could bring in a guy from LA to do it! My agent told them, "these days you could bring in a guy from LA for $5, but re-shoots are expensive."

 

What the hell are we doing to each other?????

Hey Alec,

That sucks bro . . . . . .I don't know who these "Guys" from LA are that they can fly out to do gigs for these sub par rates, everyone I know won't do a gig for any less of a rate never mind travel and do gig for sub par. I turned down a movie last year (4 months ) because they were asking for a "Flat Rate". I was told we were only going to work 4 out of the seven days each week but we all know what that means and yes of course someone else took the gig, I guess that is always going to happen and the best we can do is try to educate everyone we work with to do the right thing when it comes to matters of this sort. That being said, ask your DP friend who the guy is and then contact him let him know that you understand that he has to put food on the table but shooting himself in the foot and shooting others while he's at it shouldn't happen in the future.

 

Thanks for posting your grief . . . . .

the simple fact that we are here talking about holding ground is definitely steps in the right direction , in my opinion

 

All the best . . .

[Michael Stumpf]

I just had to pass on a feature here in NYC that I really wanted to do because I like the DP and he asked me to do it. The Producer wanted to pay scale (tons of Steadicam too) and crappy rental too. Luckily, the DP was very understanding and so I passed, as did everybody who is anybody here in NYC. Just when I thought they might actually be coming back to me, a relatively new guy took it. Kills me. So, if you're the guy that is doing this job, please know that you are helping destroy our rate structure. Its a shame.

 

I should add that when I first told them it was not enough money, they said they could bring in a guy from LA to do it! My agent told them, "these days you could bring in a guy from LA for $5, but re-shoots are expensive."

 

What the hell are we doing to each other?????

 

 

Alec, feel free to post the name of that show!

Knowledge is power.

[Alec Jarnagin SOC]

Rob,

 

Thanks for the support. My comments about LA are not to be taken too seriously as I know that most of you hold the line. There are just sooo many operators out there now. I suspect the Producer said he could bring in an out of town operator hoping it would scare me into taking an unreasonable wage. I've thought about calling the operator in question, but.... Yes, he needs to feed himself and I respect that. Had he raised his rates, he probably wouldn't be on the job. Now he has food on the table and a decent credit. See the problem? Part of me doesn't blame him at all and part of me wants to strangle him.

 

Michael, sorry if it sounds lame, but I'm not going to post the name of the show. Yes, knowledge is power, but I just have a hang up about flaming people in public. They have already started shooting and I wish my DP friend well. Production got what they wanted - a cheap operator. I will eventually sit this operator down and talk to him, but in the mean time I'm moving on. In short, I will deal with it in my own way. I only posted because you guys got me all fired up and trust me, I was pretty peeved about it.

[Daniel Stilling DFF]

Yeah,

 

I don't know what is going on around here, but today I lost 2 jobs to undercuters... It really blows... And productions love it... :angry:

[Brad Hruboska]

Well Dan if its any consolation, i 've had the situation where the rate is so low , the job happens, and a new underskilled guy comes out, for cheap, to build his reel and everyone slams the poor bastard.

The feeling I get lately is that they will shoot anyting and let the editor save them, so long as the price fits.

We had this chat when we had dinner at the BBQ place last month, thanks for a great night by the way!

Give your evelovin' my best.

What shocks me now is how producers are playing ops off against one another, and we are falling for it.

This is what happened with gear rental too guys, ask panavision the last time they got a three day week on anything!

I Guess in some markets there is a big dog, a couple of underdogs who hold the pole positions, and everyone else, regardless of 15 minutes or 15 years of experience.

I encourage you to hold out for fair rates, play the experience card as hard as you can, and follow up fast with the producer as to weather they found their magic free steadiman or not, also try to solicit the DP's aid in the bargaining, use every means of guile and while at your disposal.

 

Brad. ;)

[Dan Coplan]

Ah, this is a thread that could go on for ages. There is no black and white - very, very tricky.

 

A number of you know I'm someone who cares a great deal about rates and I've turned stuff down. But I'll toss in a couple personal examples that ride the gray area:

 

With not a whole lot of experience, I got the opportunity to work on a project that was 35, lots of good Steadicam (interesting shots, good experience/training), fairly consistent, operated like a union gig (but non-union), and I got dailies which is a rare and valuable commodity. Crummy rate. I tried my best to negotiate but it was take it or leave it. I've moved beyond that project now, but as a result of taking it, I'm a significantly better and more confident operator and this has served me for bigger projects and put me in a position where I can say no. Money-wise, not great, but practically speaking, a very smart move.

 

I've been offered another job upcoming - an opportunity to work with a new DP, develop a good relationship, and work on what I hope is a fun project. Again, really crummy rate. The DP was very cool and said he totally understands about the rate and will still call me in the future if I turn this down. I spent two days negotiating with the Line Producer and got the rate up a smidge, but it's still crummy. But you know what? In this particular case it's not about the money. I really just want to work. Not for the cash, not for the experience, not for the networking (though that all applies to some extent), but because I want to get in the rig, have fun, and make pretty pictures. If I don't take this gig I will have successfully stood my ground but I'll be sitting at home for two weeks bored and bummed that I'm not out there doing what I love doing.

 

To somewhat justify this deal, the LP, and I think I believe him, said he simply doesn't have the budget. He's not shopping for someone else, he's not telling me it'll be great for my resume and reel, they just don't have it.

 

I am very sensitive to rates and undercutting my fellow ops and I'll continue to stand up for what I believe and let jobs go (just lost a job on Friday because production wouldn't come up from lame to weak, but acceptable), but there are times, for a variety of reasons, where it's about more than top dollar. And we've all been there.

 

Would love to hear your feedback and comments.

 

Dan

[Victor M Macias]

Hi Dan,

I was in a similiar situation and not having worked for at least three months but it's like a game with these producers nowadays and as much as it hurts, we need to stand our ground. I've had producers tell me in the past that they can find someone else and I tell them go ahead. A couple of weeks into the shoot they're trying to find someone else cause that last guy bailed on them for more money. One of the things I start saying to them (producers) is that by paying me my rate it guarantees that I won't be leaving them if something else comes up. It's tough, we have already given up to much.

 

Victor M. Macias

[Afton Grant]

Would love to hear your feedback and comments.

 

Dan

 

Hey Dan,

 

There seems to be two sides tugging at this issue: "I and the short-term" vs. "we and the long-term". One huge problem is that there are aspects of all of us playing for both sides.

 

I and the short-term will always benefit from a job, regardless of production size, value or organization. There is always something to learn on set that will make me a better operator. I and the short-term can always use some extra cash. If I'm not doing anything this weekend anyway, money I earn working is gravy. Sometimes I just need cash period, so I need to work. I will network on sets, meet DPs, directors and producers that have a good chance of hiring me again someday.

 

We and the long-term do not benefit from taking the low paying gigs. Aside from potentially undercutting fellow operators, as the trend progresses, rates as a whole begin to drop. Once a producer gets someone for a certain price once, it is very difficult to retrain them in the future. We all feel the effects of that. It is a producer's job to get as much as they can for as little as possible. Speaking idealistically, if 100% of us stood fast on a certain rate, the producer would have two choices: meet the price, or forget about Steadicam. Of course this is not completely realistic, but simple economics tells us that to create a new trend, a majority of the industry must behave alike.

 

Although the arguments are attractive for I and the short-term, as long as we are all in this for the long-term, we should know what path to take. I'm still new enough to empathize with the desire to cut your teeth on low pay gigs, hopefully setting yourself up for better work in the future. But even in my relatively short time in the industry, I've seen enough to know there will be no long-term unless I do whatever I can to ensure it. There will always be exceptions. We will all do an occasional favor for a friend or something. As long as we ultimately are united, the collective we will help the individual you more than you can help yourself.

 

Just my thoughts...

Afton

[Erik Brul]

Although the arguments are attractive for I and the short-term, as long as we are all in this for the long-term, we should know what path to take. I'm still new enough to empathize with the desire to cut your teeth on low pay gigs, hopefully setting yourself up for better work in the future. But even in my relatively short time in the industry, I've seen enough to know there will be no long-term unless I do whatever I can to ensure it. There will always be exceptions. We will all do an occasional favor for a friend or something. As long as we ultimately are united, the collective we will help the individual you more than you can help yourself.

 

Just my thoughts...

Afton

 

Somehow after reading this all it seems that it is not so bad to live in a "little" country with a '"little" Corperate/Broadcast/Film world (field).

I think i know all the guys who are operating Steadicam in the Netherlands on a regular base. For my at the moment 7 guys including myself. With 2 of them i have contact on a regular base. I also know what they approx rate is for jobs.

Ofcourse i will look carefully at experience and available tools which in my case is the lowest hours/years of operating experience and the smallest rig. :(

Sofar i can oversee, we don't have a rate issue overhere. It goes even further, when a potential client wants to shoot a particular date which is not possible for me.., i will be happy to inform this client to make contact with one of the other operators in the Netherlands.

 

Good luck overthere guys ! ;)

 

Erik

[Mark Karavite]

I just had to pass on a feature here in NYC that I really wanted to do because I like the DP and he asked me to do it. The Producer wanted to pay scale (tons of Steadicam too) and crappy rental too. Luckily, the DP was very understanding and so I passed, as did everybody who is anybody here in NYC. Just when I thought they might actually be coming back to me, a relatively new guy took it. Kills me. So, if you're the guy that is doing this job, please know that you are helping destroy our rate structure. Its a shame.

 

I should add that when I first told them it was not enough money, they said they could bring in a guy from LA to do it! My agent told them, "these days you could bring in a guy from LA for $5, but re-shoots are expensive."

 

What the hell are we doing to each other?????

 

Not to sound like a broken record, but I had the same thing happen. The DP asked for me specifically, which in the good 'ol days meant you could almost name your price. The offer was for scale, no bump for Steadi, and $5000 for gear for 7 weeks! I told my agent not to even validate that offer with a counter. When I called the DP, he understood, and went back to prouction to ask for more $$ for A Cam/Steadicam. I ended up turning down 3 offers, each just a little less pitiful than the one before.

 

What's rare about this situation, is the DP ended up telling production to go ahead and hire an operator for scale, but forget Steadicam. He didn't feel confident that he could get good Steadicam for that $$, so he told production that camera would live on a dolly, slowing down production, and obivously limiting camera movement. He'd rather not spend valuable time attempting Steadicam shots that he feared would be sub par.

 

Bravo!

 

Mark Karavite

A Camera / Steadicam Operator

mkaravite@comcast.net

[mattmarek]

maybe with the $5000/7 weeks kit rental they were offering, you could have shown up with a steadicam mini or a V20 or something like that ;) offer production THAT!! :D

[Ramon Engle]

maybe with the $5000/7 weeks kit rental they were offering, you could have shown up with a steadicam mini or a V20 or something like that ;) offer production THAT!! :D

Matt the sad part to what you've suggested is that Production would very happy to hire an Operator with a V20 or a mini if the price is right. They don't care what tools you do or don't have as long as you "Say" you can do the job. It's up to personel like the DP Mark mentioned to have the stones to tell production the reality of the situation.

 

 

Ramon Engle

[Daniel Stilling DFF]

Very well done Mark,

 

I have lost count of how many productions that have offered me low numbers, and I passed on them all.

The new "Tier 1" low budget contract for outside of production cities, have the operator position as "negotiable". I was offered $ 20.00/hour and 500 a week for gear!

The sad thing is that somebody took it...

 

It's just not worth it. Shortly after that I got offered to DP a comercial for 3 days and got paid a day a what normaly I get paid a week on decent tv shows...

 

Just say no...

[Dan Coplan]

I got the same tier 1 offer but with $1000/week for Steadi (different production, I'm pretty sure). No go on that one. As in Mark's example above, it sure helps to have a DP who understands and is on your side. Even if production ends up going without Steadi, having a DP educate production helps. I'm sure they see us as trying to get more out of them as much as they're trying to get more out of us.

 

The tier 1 question begs, "Why is our union, which is supposed to be helping and representing us, making these ridiculous deals?", many of which are worse than non-union gigs. I've heard a couple times that at least we're getting benefits but that doesn't fly with me. I think it's setting a dangerous precedent. So what to do about it in addition to saying no? I think the union needs to know we're not happy with this BuSiness.

 

Dan

[David Allen Grove]

I think the union needs to know we're not happy with this BuSiness.

 

Dan

I would suggest those who are not happy (and those who are), to come to the membership

meetings and voice your thoughts.

 

I know many folks who have been in the union longer than myself, who have never been

to a membership meeting! The turnouts at these meetings are truly shameful for the number of members

we have.

 

Come to the meetings.

Get Involved.

Make a Difference.

 

Sidenote: I'd like to thank everyone who voted for me in this recent election.

I didn't plan on running at all but I was nominated and even though I didn't win I was happy

that I had so many people vote for me, I was a little shocked and touched actually.

So thank you again everyone, you guys rock!

 

Side Side Note: Congrats Daniel (falcon) Stilling for becoming an SOC member!