NBC- Las Vegas - NO Insurance Policy

[Ramon Engle]

Not a bad idea Dan. An insurance outline of what too include and caveats to be aware of would be a good idea.

I'm sure that Eric " The all knowing, all Seeing" Fletcher, Could provide mucho technical insight on the breakdown of an insurance cert. I've always asked for one and given an amount that should be covered but to tell the truth I've never looked to determine any deductibles to be covered by anybody.

 

 

Ramon

[Daniel Stilling DFF]

Hey all,

 

About the 25.000 deductible, call me naive, but in my opinion that is the productions problem.

The gear is under productions responsibility. Something happens and they cover it.

If it comes out of the budget or from insurance, that's their decission to make. After all. that's why they have insurance.

 

If someone rams into your car on the street, it's the guy that is at fault responsibility to pay for it, insurance, deductible and all.

 

Once I was working on a ABC Family/Lions Gate show, and a horse kicked and destroied my monitor and monitor arm. There were no questions asked, Next day production was paying the invoices for the new stuff.

 

Besides all that, say production fails to cover us, what about our own insurance, wouldn't that kick in and cover it all (of course, minus the deductible)? Like many here, I have insurance through Walter P. Doyle. and I was hoping that it will cover my gear no matter what. Isn't that so?

[Eric Fletcher S.O.C.]

Just received an email through the Steadicam Guild via Randy Nolen regarding an insurance cert that held a $25,000 deductible responsibility of the operator.

 

 

It's not that one of the problems. The reason that you are named "Loss payee" is to prove that the production company is insuring your gear. It's Still Productions insurance. That Deductible is the responsibility of the production company.

[RonBaldwin]

Pull out one of your old insurance certs and read it carefully. Everyone I've ever recieved says this somewhere on it (I'll quote from the one I recieved yeterday and attach a picture):

 

"this certificate is issued as a matter of information and confers no rights on the cirtificate holder other than those provided in the policy. This cirtificate does not ament, extend or alter the coverage afforded by the policies described herein."

 

What an lawyer told me (after crashing, causing minor damage to my rig and destroying a 535B) was to be aware of this. Technically they do not have to do anything for me because I'm not on the original policy, and they cannot arbitrarily change the policy by simply typing my info into a blank box on a copy of the certificate. The good news is that they acknowledge that I am there with expensive stuff by the act of filling in my name. He went on to say that it is also a good idea to have the prod manager/upm/producer/whoever initial each page of your equip inventory so he's basically saying yes, he's here with all this stuff.

 

Wether this is true or not, it made sense and put the scare in me to be careful about getting them (certs) and covering my butt with additional insurance (also Walter P. Dolle). Luckily I've only been stiffed once -- Seitz fried in rain (yes, I'm that old!) and haven't run into issues since. Times are changing though, we are becoming less and less important to the big corps that run the shows...well, I guess we've never been that important to them, but now they say it to our faces.

 

you can thank me later for wrecking that 535.

 

Ron B

[Bill Brummond]

I'm thinking about getting a lawyer and my insurance agent together and having a new contract/agreement written up to cover me on jobs. Anyone else interested?

 

Bill

[RonBaldwin]

I am very interested Bill -- but will the prod co. sign it?

 

Worst case senario the prod co. should at least cover your deductible and costs incured dealing with the situation.

 

rb

[Charles Papert]

Sounds good Bill. For those of us who use deal memos, there may or may not be something in there that refers to this issue but if there was a common clause that we could all use that has been picked over by both a lawyer and insurance agent, I think that would be very helpful. I'd be willing in to kick in if there were legal costs in generating that article.

 

I'm also of a mind that we should be proactively lobbying the studios to clarify this issue rather than have to fight it one at a time as it comes up, but I don't know how we'd go about that.

 

As I've seen it, the Steadicam operator and the sound mixer are the two "protected" individuals who can always get their gear rented and (traditionally) insured even as everyone else's box rentals are getting shut out. A few times that I've gone out as a conventional operator and attempted to get my O'Connor onboard has quickly demonstrated to me how widespread this is. But I imagine that the mixers are going through the same wringer that we are (in fact I know this for sure, as I had this happen on an NBC/Uni pilot last year) so that's a whole other group that we could team up with to fight this fight.

[Charles Papert]

Here's a tidbit from the archives: 10 years ago I was on a short-lived series out of town (for Paramount, I think) and my 8mm clamshell was stolen off the camera cart, on a closed and controlled set. I went to the UPM to report it, and he wondered why I would leave a $1000 item "lying around on a cart". I said, "you mean, lying around next to the prime lens cases and the B body...??!"

 

After he haughtily proclaimed me "careless" (he was a real peach) he put it in the PR and the claim went in. The show wrapped a week or two later and I had not received a check. The production office said it was out of their hands and I needed to deal with the studio. I eventually got to a guy in the studio accounting office who frankly told me that it would never get paid, even though I held an insurance cert and all was in order. He said they were doing this all the time, and just telling people to sue them if they didn't like it, which of course wouldn't be worth it for that amount. He seemed quite nonchalant about this blatant "f-you". I asked him if he would be so kind to state that company policy in a letter and he hung up on me. Lots of good feelings about that show.

[RonBaldwin]

on a possitive note, I had my archos stolen right off my rig (velcro was no match for a passerby) while on E.R. during a lunch break. They were so cool about it I couldn't believe it. They cut me a check within the week. It was so new I didn't even have it on my inventory sheet yet.

 

rb

[Bill Brummond]

I've had the good and bad stories as well. My insurance company actually sued SONY on a claim. The UPM lied thru his teeth under oath.

 

If we ALL had the same rental conditions on the same Standard form, perhaps these Production Companies would get used to it and accept it as the norm. We could even call it the 'Steadicam Operators Association Standard Rental Condition Agreement' or something even more boring. Give it a form number like FU-2. I'm borrowing some language from Clairmont's agreement and will post something this week. You call can comment on it then I'll take it to my agent.

 

We could hand out these standard forms at workshops with students Steadicam License. Make them swear to only use the form in all agreements or they would loose their license. ;)

 

Bill

[Lawrence Karman]

I can only assume that the show Mr. Brummond was hosed by is a union shoot. If this is true, where is the union in all its power and glory with regard to negotiating insurance related issues and eliminating the nebulous gray areas that are creating such an outcome.

 

Big biz and the insurance companies make their own rules; just ask, for instance, the millions of homeowners that got the middle finger from the insurance companies after Katrina.

 

We pay dearly for worker's comp. The trump is, once you use it, your screwed. Outrageous!

 

And, don't get me going on illegal Martians, let alone sandals on men!!!

 

 

I don't know who you are but your posting sounds awfully smarmy to me. This is serious business, Bill has made a choice to give up his livelyhood in order to back up his principles, and possibly yours as well. And if you knew anything at all about the state of unions in this Rebublican led country you'd know they are anything but "high and mighty". Besides, the union deals with issus that are common to all it's members like working conditions, wages, and P&W, not personal rentals that only pertain to a small percentage of it's membership.

 

Let me also say to all that as someone with experience in the equipment rental business and someone with an agent, you might get a contract signed by a commercial or music vide company, but you will have a very hard time getting a contract signed by the sudios. These things get passed on to their legal dept where the lawyers must justify their jobs by crossing anything out that lays liability on the studio. Additionally UPM's will quote "studio policy" or "can't set a precedent" and refuse to sign. Save your money drawing up a contract with a lawyer.

[Alfeo Dixon SOC]

you might get a contract signed by a commercial or music vide company, but you will have a very hard time getting a contract signed by the sudios. These things get passed on to their legal dept where the lawyers must justify their jobs by crossing anything out that lays liability on the studio. Additionally UPM's will quote "studio policy" or "can't set a precedent" and refuse to sign. Save your money drawing up a contract with a lawyer.

 

I think this is why Bill's idea of a united "SOA FU-2 Standards" would make for an excellent idea. If the SOA stands together then there will be a better chance for this to happen.

[Charles Papert]

If we ALL had the same rental conditions on the same Standard form, perhaps these Production Companies would get used to it and accept it as the norm. We could even call it the 'Steadicam Operators Association Standard Rental Condition Agreement

 

This may indeed be something that the SOA would be interested in lending their name to Bill, definitely worth contacting them to see if that would be the case.

[Mark Karavite]

I can't believe anyone would show up on set with $100K in gear, and not have it insured by production. When you lease a car, the auto company specifies the insurance required to protect their interest in the vehicle. I am always amazed how people in this business agree to thousands of dollars in contracts verbally over the phone. Most businesses require a PO for anything over a few hundred dollars. Why should we treat our livelyhood any different.

 

Obtain signed deal memos and insurance certificates prior to production starting, or stay home. How production screwed Bill is immoral, and should be illegal. There's an old saying in business, "You'll never get screwed in business, if you don't give anyone the opportunity to screw you". Having a detailed deal memo and insurance certificate (making production liable for damage & deductables) is a sure fire way of protecting your interest, in writing.

 

I deal in real estate on the side, and some brokers and contractors could give producers a run for their money in the scumbag department. When signing a contract, ask yourself, if I sue or get sued, will this contract give me a legal leg to stand on. If you have your interests covered in writing, when a producer or UPM attempts to screw you, telling him to pay, or loose to you in court, will warm your heart. FYI, someone mentioned that sueing for $1000 was not worth the effort, I disagree. Most small claims limits are $3000. It is much easier to sue in small claims, than a suit over the $3000 limit. Small claims requires a trip to the local circuit court to file documents, an informal hearing with a mediator, then a court appearance if the 2 parties cannot agree in mediation. No lawyers are allowed, therefore no legal fees. I have won 4 of 4 cases in small claims court.

 

My personal equipment insurance covers my gear all the time, but that does not excuse production from it's liability. I'm all for an officail SOA stand against this type of lunacy. If some of us start to accept this, more producers will jump on the bandwagon. Let's not only be great operators, but smart businessmen (& women).

 

Mark Karavite

A Camera / Steadicam Operator

mkaravite@comcast.net

[Jerry Holway]

All-

 

I will look into this for the SOA.

 

However, I think that like long hours, short turnarounds, and other work issues, the Union is the only group that producers en masse might listen to. But it's hard to believe that our union leaders would go to the wall for such a small sub-group (ops and sound recordists).

 

I think Mark has it right - get the deal memo and insurance certificate first in writing.

 

I always cross out and initial any part of the deal memo "boilerplate" that says I'm responsible for my gear. I also add in writing that production is responsible for insuring my equipment and that the UPM has agreed that production is responsible as a condition of hiring me and using my gear. I also include a list of my gear with serial numbers and replacement values.

 

Luckily, I've never had to test if any of that does any good. I'd hate to go head to head with the lawyers of some megaconglomerate

 

Another insurance concern is liability - crashing into an actress (or even a PA!) could cost someone lots more than our gear is worth.

 

In the USA, and maybe elsewhere, it's imperative to have one's own liability insurance (it's very inexpensive) but, just like with gear insurance, be sure production's insurance covers you. Production does cover you if you are an employee, but not if you are a subcontractor.

 

It's ironic (?) that operators typically are subsontractors on the lowest paying, non-union jobs... where the "exposure" is the greatest.

 

Jerry